Be Ye Perfect

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If one dwells on their past sure they can get messed up. I am presenting truth as it is presented in scripture. Part of the perfection I believe in is being fed by Teachers, Elders, ect. It also involves becoming part of the Christian Family and being surrounded by love.

It may not be such a bad thing to occasionally remember what Yeshua has brought us from.

Amen. I was only getting into the context of Hebrews 10 and how it mentions the purging of the conscience in lieu of our need to come boldly with full assurance of faith into the holiest.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Remember the perfection spoken of here is a perfection pertaining to the conscience (Hebrews 9:9), NOT a perfection of behavior. It is not making the sinner "perfect" in deed. It is making the sinner "continually perfect" in conscience before God.

I see no difference. If ones BEHAVIOR is that of sin he will have a troubled CONSCIENCE until he sears it totally or repents. Christs sacrifice provides the new birth which in turn provides the pure conscience. Why do the born again have a pure conscience?

9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

I understand why you would have difficulty in comprehending my posts, Michael. You approach salvation from a very different perspective than do I. If we must be completely perfect in behavior before we can have a perfected conscience before God then the question is begged.... how much good behavior is required to merit the good conscience? How do we know when we have achieved an adequate amount of goodness in our walk to be deemed righteous by God? When do we truly have assurance of salvation? Or do we ever?

What if my definition of standards for holy living are more stringent than yours? What if what I think is sin you do not, or what you think is sin I do not? More importantly, what if what you think is not sin IS in the eyes of God? Have you "repented" for each and every possible sin? Not only sins of commission, but accidental sins of ignorance, sins of ommission, sinful thoughts deep in your heart, even sinful attitudes of any kind toward anyone or anything? When do you KNOW you have lived righteously enough and have "repented" of enough to be deemed righteous by God? When can you EVER have a good conscience toward God?

I love the verse you referenced: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1John 3:9)

Since those born of God CANNOT sin, do you believe one who stumbles after being born again somehow becomes unborn before each stumble? Must he be born again and again and again and again and again and again after each stumble? OR.... having been once born again, is he simply a child of God who stumbles but remains continually secure in the unconditionally loving, caring and understanding arms of God as he grows in his attempt to be conformed in behavior to the image of his Savior?

Michael, how do you KNOW you are currently saved?

[Adino]

mfblume, good post.

I believe it is saying that there is a place WE CAN COME TO in which we have no conscience of sins.

I agree.

I know believers in Christ who are saved and yet still have concsience of sins. Their consciences are not purged. They are sin-conscious. They feel inferior and no-good.

I would say that these individuals have this consciousness because they've been conditioned to think this way. Many have been conditioned to feel inferior, inadequate or no-good before God because it's drummed into them that they haven't prayed enough, praised enough, given enough, attended enough, visited enough, read enough, witnessed enough, tithed enough, blah, blah, blah. One will continue to feel under par and as falling short as long as one remains under the constraints of a legalistic system of religion.

I would submit that anyone living under a legalistic mindset are apt to continually feel inferior and no-good before God. I think this is a sad reality in much of Christianity today. The only way to come out of this mindset is to either 1) finally live good enough to sooth your troubled mind (just how much good living is actually good enough to merit a good conscience is up to subjective reasoning) or 2) realize we will never be "good enough" and rest in the goodness of Christ while we attempt to live as righteously as we can (our salvation being assured not because of our righteous ability to conform to his image but on the righteousness of our Savior imputed to us while we strive to be as holy as he was in behavior).

Hebrews is generally teaching us about coming to a place in faith where we are in what the writer called "the most holy place", and have victory over all life's situations. Hebrews 10 mentions the facts of how Christ's single sacrifice perfects forever those who are sanctified, when the old testament sacrifices were repeated in indication they could not perfect the "comers thereunto."

Amen

And here is the kicker: The old testament saints had no way to get rid of their evil consciences, since they had their sins thrown into their faces every year at atonenment, because atonement in their day did not cut it once and for all. But we have people in the new covenant, where their sins have been dealt with once and for all, who act like they are under the old testament! They have conscience of sins! They live like Christ's sacrifice never atoned for them once and for all. And I think this is why Heb 10 is showing the differences between covenants, so that those with conscience of sins can cease having such an evil conscience, and be purged from such a conscience.

Yes

But my point is that those saved and in the new covenant CAN STILL HAVE CONSCIENCE OF SINS although they do not have to.

While we are certainly to recognize many things which are considered as "sinful" and should attempt to avoid "bad behavior," if we truly have full assurance of faith in Christ's work we will not have "an evil conscience". If the conscience is not cleansed it is because there is a lack of faith in the one who provided "continual perfection pertaining to the conscience."

A pure conscience is not necessarily experienced in new birth. Teaching produces this after new birth.

I disagree. The new birth should immediately bring a pure conscience. In fact, water baptism (which pictures the new birth) is not supposed to be administered to anyone who does not have a good conscience toward God. Baptism was the time at which an inquiry was made concerning the conscience toward God. Baptism was the "answer (eperotema) of a good conscience toward God" (1Peter 3:21).

The word "eperotema" was a word used in court settings when a witness was inquired of his pledge to tell the truth. If I remember correctly, it was Tertullian who pointed out that water baptism was the time at which a new believer was asked concerning his "good conscience toward God" concerning sin. This "inquiry" (eperotema) of faith was directed toward every baptismal candidate. The candidate who did not feel free from the guilt of sin did not have true faith in sin remitting work of Christ. Only those who have "full assurance of faith" in the Lord Jesus Christ and have a good conscience toward God are to be baptized.

[Michael The Disciple]

Adino said,


Michael, how do you KNOW you are currently saved?

a. 13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

b. 3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Simple enough.

[Michael The Disciple]

Adino

I understand why you would have difficulty in comprehending my posts, Michael. You approach salvation from a very different perspective than do I. If we must be completely perfect in behavior before we can have a perfected conscience before God then the question is begged.... how much good behavior is required to merit the good conscience? How do we know when we have achieved an adequate amount of goodness in our walk to be deemed righteous by God? When do we truly have assurance of salvation? Or do we ever?

Yes we are looking from 2 different ways. You are asking me how much good behavior must one have to have a pure conscience. It might seem to me you are saying how much sin must one commit before he feels convicted over it?

Whats so difficult about having a pure conscience?

3: I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 2 Tim. 1:3

Paul speaks of it as it were normal.

5: Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 1 Tim. 1:5

The purpose of God is expressly these few things. Its not as if they are sooooo high and lofty that we cannot obtain them. A true Christian should have a good conscience.

Show me a Biblical example of someone who had not sinned but had a "bad" conscience?

[Michael The Disciple]

Adino

What if my definition of standards for holy living are more stringent than yours? What if what I think is sin you do not, or what you think is sin I do not? More importantly, what if what you think is not sin IS in the eyes of God? Have you "repented" for each and every possible sin? Not only sins of commission, but accidental sins of ignorance, sins of ommission, sinful thoughts deep in your heart, even sinful attitudes of any kind toward anyone or anything? When do you KNOW you have lived righteously enough and have "repented" of enough to be deemed righteous by God? When can you EVER have a good conscience toward God?

I love the verse you referenced: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1John 3:9)

Since those born of God CANNOT sin, do you believe one who stumbles after being born again somehow becomes unborn before each stumble? Must he be born again and again and again and again and again and again after each stumble? OR.... having been once born again, is he simply a child of God who stumbles but remains continually secure in the unconditionally loving, caring and understanding arms of God as he grows in his attempt to be conformed in behavior to the image of his Savior?

In a nutshell if one is keeping the word of Yeshua he will have a good conscience before him.

Paul seemed to know that he was right where he should be in the Lord.

10: Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 1 Thess. 2:10

He did not believe he had areas of impurity, unjustness, or blame hidden in his heart. He understood he was a normal Christian.

Both of the options you offer me concerning a disciple who sins miss the mark. If he sins no he does not right then and there lose his Sonship.

If any man sin we have an advocate with the Father....Jesus Christ. 1 John 2:1

Your other option is ok as far as you took it but if one persists in sin Yeshua is NOT a King who promises UNCONDITIONAL love to those who despise his grace.

His love is with this condition:

10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

So if one stumbles and gets up and goes on with Yeshua he may yet be secure in him.

If the one who sinned begins to drift from Yeshua in not keeping his word the Lord will chasten him. If he does not respond then he will not abide in Christs love.

That to me is the balanced, scriptural approach.

The way we differ from my viewpoint is you are building your doctrine out of a CONCEPT while I build by looking at the whole of what is said and done by the Lord and Apostles.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

a. 13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

b. 3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Simple enough.

Define for us, please, each and every commandment we are to keep. Thanks. Should be simple right?

Before I get to the rest of your thoughts later, let me point you to the biblical "CONCEPT" you have thus far rejected.... it is called imputed righteousness.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Adino

Define for us, please, each and every commandment we are to keep. Thanks. Should be simple right?

Before I get to the rest of your thoughts later, let me point you to the biblical "CONCEPT" you have thus far rejected.... it is called imputed righteousness.

Are we to teach commandments?

19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt. 28:19-20

We are COMMANDED to teach disciples to obey his commands.

One who has forsaken all to follow him wont have a problem with that.

His commands may basically be found in Matt. chapters 5-7. Then a careful reading of 1 Cor. 6 9-10, Gal. 5:19-21 will give the new convert a good idea what a Christian is to be.

Those who love Yeshua will not kick or stumble over the fact that thier Lord requires something of them.

If ye LOVE me keep my commandments. John 14:15

The soul who has been caught up in the love of Yeshua will do whatever his Lord wants him to do.

21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

And what reason did Jesus give for someone NOT keeping his word?

24: He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 14:24

Any concept that does not include these teachings would carry no weight to a disciple who loves Yeshua. If the concept AGREES WITH HIS WORDS then it will be very precious and worth contending for.

[WholeTruth24]

Originally Posted by Adino

Define for us, please, each and every commandment we are to keep. Thanks. Should be simple right?

Before I get to the rest of your thoughts later, let me point you to the biblical "CONCEPT" you have thus far rejected.... it is called imputed righteousness.

The Bible speaks of "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little."

You seem to overwhelm yourself with the thought that one have to obey ALL of the Bible, Known and UNKNOWN, before they are saved.

Here's my earlier post:

Originally Posted by WholeTruth24

Micheal,

My Bishop explained Matt. 5:48, as such-

Being perfect as God is perfect, refers to living all you know, holy and acceptable to God.

You see God is perfect in everything because He knows everything and is thus perfect in all He knows

For us to be perfect even as God in Heaven is perfect we have to be perfect in all we know, (referring to striving and living a life for God, not natural acts like walking and jumping.)

If you know such and such is wrong then don’t do it. The Bible says “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17) So if you do everything you know that is right and expedient and don’t do anything you know that is wrong or evil then you can live a life sinless, without sin. And as more is revealed to one, they can apply it to their life and live a more deeper, richer life with God, all the while avoiding do the things they know to be wrong, sins.

Thus we are perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

I disagree. The new birth should immediately bring a pure conscience.

I agree with much of what you say, but not with this. That means whoever is genuinely born again should never have a bad conscience, and that is simply not the case, Adino. As I said, I know people who were genuinley saved and yet have an evil conscience. It is sometimes due to conditioning, but at other times simply due to not having been taught what the cross did for us.

The inclincation to concern ourselves with works, which always brings a sense of inadequacy, is inbred in our lives since birth in sin. It is the knowledge of good and evil. We do not even need legalism to cause this. Legalism simply fits quite nicely with it, but we are naturally inclined towards feeling of inadequacy, already.

And unless we are taught the extent of what the cross did, we will have an evil conscience.

In fact, water baptism (which pictures the new birth) is not supposed to be administered to anyone who does not have a good conscience toward God.

Having a good conscience towards God is something totally apart from the issue of whether or not one has an evil conscience towards oneself in regards to their ability to approach God. A good conscience towards God simply refers to a sincerity to truly trust and believe God for salvation. But if one does not know the truths of what the cross produced for us, one will still have an evil conscience TOWARDS THEMSELVES. Hence, Heb 10 teaches we can boldly approach the throne and have full assurance. This faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word.

In short, one can have a good conscience towards God and have faith in His salvation, having fully repented. But the same one can still have an evil conscience towards themselves that makes them feel inadequate for approaching the throne. They had faith to get saved, but LATER they do not have it to CONTINUE.

Baptism was the time at which an inquiry was made concerning the conscience toward God. Baptism was the "answer (eperotema) of a good conscience toward God" (1Peter 3:21).

The word "eperotema" was a word used in court settings when a witness was inquired of his pledge to tell the truth. If I remember correctly, it was Tertullian who pointed out that water baptism was the time at which a new believer was asked concerning his "good conscience toward God" concerning sin. This "inquiry" (eperotema) of faith was directed toward every baptismal candidate. The candidate who did not feel free from the guilt of sin did not have true faith in sin remitting work of Christ. Only those who have "full assurance of faith" in the Lord Jesus Christ and have a good conscience toward God are to be baptized.

Hebrews 10 is not talking to sinners about getting baptized, but to saints about coming to a place of entrance into the holiest well after salvation. There would be no need to teach this if everyone received all they need at baptism.