Be Ye Perfect

[Michael The Disciple]

In another thread Man Of Word said:

The Head of the church does NOT require His people to be perfect. They are to be perfected. They will NEVER be perfect down here. We are all in the process of being perfected and will NEVER reach the place that our flaws are gone until we are freed from these bodies.

Are you stating that you believe in the doctrine of sinless perfection?

Me:

Yet right here Yeshua gives the plain statement:

Be ye perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

Notice the two words EVEN AS in this scripture? That means in the same way the Father is perfect we are to be perfect. Is it true Yeshua meant we are to be in the process of being perfected? If that be true it means that the Father is in the process of being perfected!

While it is true that we are to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ that is different than living without sin. Living without sin is very basic to the Christian life.

There are two levels of the truth of perfection.

1. To live without sin.
2. To grow up into HIM in all things.

To live without sin is the easier of the two. Paul said we were DEAD TO SIN from the time we were baptized into the name of Jesus.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:1-3

To those who think the Christian must continue in sin Paul asks "how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"

It is a tremendous mistake for Christians to think sin is normal to them.

First things first. I am not teaching that man in his own strength can live without sin. Matter of fact in 33 years of my walk I have never heard a Christian teacher say such a thing.

What I do believe and teach is that a Christian is a new creation in Christ. Living in a human body is no excuse for the spirit filled believer to continue sinning.

The proof:

10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Rom. 8:10-12

The mighty Holy Ghost quickens the mortal body to do the will of God. Therefore we are NOT DEBTORS TO THE FLESH.

Here Paul tells us in no uncertain terms the body must be holy.

1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom. 12:1

So you see friends God is not encouraging anyone to wait for a NEW BODY before he can be freed from sin. Rather he tells us that he expects us to offer the BODIES WE NOW HAVE to him holy, and acceptable to him. He calls this our REASONABLE SERVICE.

Not something unusual. Not something unattainable. Just our reasonable service.

It is true that a Christian could sin and then be forgiven of course. But men have set the true standard of Christ so low people are saying they CANNOT cease from sin. Jesus said be perfect as the Father is perfect.

[SDG]

Mike ... if you think that somehow we can be perfected, or process of santification without His Spirit and by our works of obedience ... I would have to disagree with you ...

As long as we live in this flesh there is a struggle between flesh and spirit ... it is his Spirit in us and grace that allow us to have access to the throne.

If you think we drink some kind of perfect pill ... that instantly makes you perfect you are heading for a brick wall, JMO.

Paul recognized this constant daily struggle

Did Paul acknowledge his sinful nature?

"For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me" (Romans 7:14-17, New Revised Standard Version).

Paul well understood his human nature—how deceitful it could be. As a young Jewish boy he had been taught to do what is right. In line with his early training, he was exceptionally sincere. Yet, when Christ opened his mind to see himself as he really was, he recognized he had deceived himself about his own righteousness. He could see he had sinned in many ways, both in action and attitude.

He concluded: "For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, within my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand" (verses 18-21, NRSV).

In Galatians he tells us the key to living an overcoming life:

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Romans 3 reminds us of our imperfections in this human body .... AND THE NEED FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

John reminds us:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" -- 1 John 1:8-10 NIV

Sanctification is a process ....

2 Corinthians chapter 3

17 Now, ... wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom. 18 ... And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.

[Carpenter]

What I do believe and teach is that a Christian is a new creation in Christ. Living in a human body is no excuse for the spirit filled believer to continue sinning

So what you are saying here is that you are actually able to live a sinless life?

Man, I bet most people would like your definition of sin!

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi Daniel,

You said:

Mike ... if you think that somehow we can be perfected, or process of santification without His Spirit and by our works of obedience ... I would have to disagree with you ...

Me:

Did you not read THIS in my post?

First things first. I am not teaching that man in his own strength can live without sin. Matter of fact in 33 years of my walk I have never heard a Christian teacher say such a thing.

You said:

As long as we live in this flesh there is a struggle between flesh and spirit ... it is his Spirit in us and grace that allow us to have access to the throne.

Me:

Yes but my point is the Christian is to be victorious over the flesh. Remember Paul said:

24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal. 5:24

You said:

Did Paul acknowledge his sinful nature?

"For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me" (Romans 7:14-17, New Revised Standard Version).

Paul well understood his human nature—how deceitful it could be. As a young Jewish boy he had been taught to do what is right. In line with his early training, he was exceptionally sincere. Yet, when Christ opened his mind to see himself as he really was, he recognized he had deceived himself about his own righteousness. He could see he had sinned in many ways, both in action and attitude.

He concluded: "For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, within my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand" (verses 18-21, NRSV).


Me:


Romans 7 is Paul re interating his experience when he was IN THE FLESH still under the law without the Holy Spirit.

5: For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:5-6

He then goes on into Rom. 8 where he demonstrates the difference between the life in the flesh he spoke of in chapter 7 and what he is presently experiencing.

8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom. 8:8-13

The Spirit of Christ in the mortal body quickens it that it is no longer a debtor to the flesh. If we live after the flesh we will die. If we THROUGH THE SPIRIT put to death the deeds of the body we will live. Its overcome or die.

Also note that to the Thessalonians Paul was able to sat this of himself and his partners.

10: Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 1 Thess. 2:10

Paul said they lived holy and without blame. Thats sinless perfection in a nutshell.

I will deal with 1 John 1:8 in my next post.

[ThePastorsCoach]

I think if you are gonna post that the Name of Jesus Christ is Yeshua then your entire post should be in Hebrew. IMHO

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Carpenter;50763[B

]So what you are saying here is that you are actually able to live a sinless life?[/B]

Man, I bet most people would like your definition of sin!

That's what he's saying ... no wiggle room at all ..

There are two levels of the truth of perfection.

1. To live without sin.
2. To grow up into HIM in all things.

To live without sin is the easier of the two. Paul said we were DEAD TO SIN from the time we were baptized into the name of Jesus.

No room for Sanctification here ... !!!!

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

That's what he's saying ... no wiggle room at all ..



No room for Sanctification here ... !!!!

...unless of course he doesn't believe anything is actually a sin..

[Michael The Disciple]

Without a proper understanding of the context of 1 John 1:8 many have rejected the Bible teaching that the Spirit filled Christian can live without sin.

Here is the context.

5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:5-9

If we read verse 8 out of its context it would seem to be saying A Christian is deceiving himself. But if we can see that verse 8 is a reference back to verse 6 another story emerges.

Verse 6.

6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

John is speaking to those who ALTHOUGH THEY WALK IN DARKNESS claim to be having fellowship with the Lord. Their problem is they claim to know Yeshua but walk in darkness. John says such are liars.

They are going on as if everything is ok though they have sin in their lives.

TO THEM John says:

8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Verses 8-9

You see the difference? Now it becomes clear John is addressing those who actually ARE SINNING and yet refusing to acknowledge it! He say TO THEM "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

They walk in darkness. The darkness is sin present in their lives that they refuse to admit. John tells them if they confess the sin they will be forgiven.

It is a distortion of Johns meaning to say that he taught that if a Christian IN GENERAL says he has no sin he is a liar.

John himself in many scriptures shows the exact opposite that the Christian should EXPECT to live without sin!

The same Apostle says:

3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Here John says it is the one who DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS is the liar with no truth in him!

You see John is not contradicting himself. He consistently presents the truth that we ARE TO OBEY the commands of Yeshua.

And IF one WOULD sin if they confess they can be forgiven but if they refuse to admit they are sinning they are liars and deceivers of their own selves.

This is the sound doctrine that appears all throughout the Bible.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

So what you are saying here is that you are actually able to live a sinless life?

Man, I bet most people would like your definition of sin!

People who have sin in their lives are people who if they leave it there will not be in the Kingdom.

19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal. 5:19-21

Can we live without sin? I see us exhorted to do so everywhere I look in Gods word. Those with sin in the life must be told what Paul says. Their sin WILL keep them from the kingdom of God.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

People who have sin in their lives are people who if they leave it there will not be in the Kingdom.

19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal. 5:19-21

Can we live without sin? I see us exhorted to do so everywhere I look in Gods word. Those with sin in the life must be told what Paul says. Their sin WILL keep them from the kingdom of God.

Mike ... you're perfect.