UPC Pastor Convicted of Slander in Pulpit!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I never witnessed anything like this, but I have heard many stories from friends that it did happen to. It appears that teenagers are the biggest target when they start to question or rebel against church teachings. Unfortunately, every person that I know that this happened to left the church for good after being humiliated. I have yet to see a positive result from the public approach.

Yup, it DOES happen to teens more then anyone, although I did see it happen to people of all ages. Once I hit 18 -and until my early 30's, I think I stepped inside a church a few dozen times. I still don't go much because of the wave of bad memories (and still do everything I can to avoid song service).

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Yup, it DOES happen to teens more then anyone, although I did see it happen to people of all ages. Once I hit 18 -and until my early 30's, I think I stepped inside a church a few dozen times. I still don't go much because of the wave of bad memories (and still do everything I can to avoid song service).

My father was a good pastor, and I never recall him calling anyone out for sin from the pulpit. He DID make one tragic mistake with my sister in private when she was a teenager.

She sneaked out one night and went to a high school party with her best friend. At this party, my sister and her friend were both raped!

My father, in his emotional response to hearing about the rape, put the blame on my sister for getting involved with worldly friends. It was my sister's fault that she and her friend were raped!

The icing on the cake was when he followed that up and said, "Think about how this looks on ME as a pastor!"

When my sister heard those words, she was forever changed! She will not now darken the doors of a church! She is a drug addict and lives a rather sad life now at the age of 52 years old.

When my sister heard that my father's concern about her humiliation of being raped was how it looked on HIM, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. My father later apologized, but the bell couldn't be un-rung!

[DAII]

I see Lois also has brought up the looming doctrinal and ecclesiatical issue that this case brings before the UPCI, when it comes to the definition of fornication and reasons for divorce:

"As pointed out earlier, the UPC ministerial Manual gives their official definition of immoral conduct to include "adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest, and/or any other sexual acts determined by the District Board to be perverted or immoral." It would appear that the official stand of the organization is basically that immoral conduct is some form of sexual act.

Let's review the acts listed by Pastor Fogarty, that in his eyes constitute biblical fornication:

• homosexuality
• lesbianism
• lust
• exhibitionism
• pornography
• child abuse
• harlotry
• bestiality
• prostitution
• solicitation of sex
• and so forth

The question that needs to be answered is whether or not the United Pentecostal Church as an organization is in agreement. Besides the organization as a whole, would any UPC District Board across the country agree that the incident at the swimming pool was in fact exhibitionism and that this is an example of the biblical definition of fornication and thus grounds for divorce and remarriage?

This case has great significance in the organization because if this definition stands, similar statements concerning other church members, or former members as is the case here, could be made by their licensed ministers in other churches and/or it used as a reason for additional divorce or remarriage.

If it stands, will a licensed minister be able to divorce or remarry based on their spouse accidentally being seen in a bathing suit at a pool when another man suddenly arrives?

This isn't just a local licensed minister giving this definition. It is someone who holds numerous offices within the UPC, including high level positions."

---------------------
Lois, I would add that the indifference shown by the District Supt. on the matter which came before him via letter .... and in my own experience - my dad served on the Metro District board - the District board of Georgia no doubt met either formally or informally about this ...

Their indifference to address this definition given by the General Secretary of the Georgia board which is at the VERY CORE OF THIS MATTER ... can only be interpreted as tacit approval of his definition ...

Yes, the UPCI manual defines these as sexual acts but also allows a district board to determine other acts that are perverse or immoral

By choosing to not censure or address this matter in a public manner, or with Ms. Driver, one must believe that their apathy is tacit stamp of approval of a board member's definition of fornication.

Georgia Board, is exhibitionism and/or other forms of immodesty ... FORNICATION?
Is there a difference between immodesty (commonly viewed as wearing pants, or skirt above the knee) and exhibitionism?
How much skin qualifies for exhibitionism? What settings?
Is this grounds for divorce?

Has Pastor Fogarty been corrected in defining fornication seemingly contrary to how it is defined by the manual and scripturally ... and for condoning divorce on the grounds he gave?

This is a matter of precedence.

[Trouvere]

sad

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

My father was a good pastor, and I never recall him calling anyone out for sin from the pulpit. He DID make one tragic mistake with my sister in private when she was a teenager.

She sneaked out one night and went to a high school party with her best friend. At this party, my sister and her friend were both raped!

My father, in his emotional response to hearing about the rape, put the blame on my sister for getting involved with worldly friends. It was my sister's fault that she and her friend were raped!

The icing on the cake was when he followed that up and said, "Think about how this looks on ME as a pastor!"

When my sister heard those words, she was forever changed! She will not now darken the doors of a church! She is a drug addict and lives a rather sad life now at the age of 52 years old.

When my sister heard that my father's concern about her humiliation of being raped was how it looked on HIM, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. My father later apologized, but the bell couldn't be un-rung!

This is sad. I am sure that it was your dads way of dealing with the tragedy, in the same way that one spouse may actually get angry at the other for passing away on them.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Is this thread really necessary?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by DAII

I see Lois also has brought up the looming doctrinal and ecclesiatical issue that this case brings before the UPCI, when it comes to the definition of fornication and reasons for divorce:

"As pointed out earlier, the UPC ministerial Manual gives their official definition of immoral conduct to include "adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest, and/or any other sexual acts determined by the District Board to be perverted or immoral." It would appear that the official stand of the organization is basically that immoral conduct is some form of sexual act.

Let's review the acts listed by Pastor Fogarty, that in his eyes constitute biblical fornication:

• homosexuality
• lesbianism
• lust
• exhibitionism
• pornography
• child abuse
• harlotry
• bestiality
• prostitution
• solicitation of sex
• and so forth

The question that needs to be answered is whether or not the United Pentecostal Church as an organization is in agreement. Besides the organization as a whole, would any UPC District Board across the country agree that the incident at the swimming pool was in fact exhibitionism and that this is an example of the biblical definition of fornication and thus grounds for divorce and remarriage?

This case has great significance in the organization because if this definition stands, similar statements concerning other church members, or former members as is the case here, could be made by their licensed ministers in other churches and/or it used as a reason for additional divorce or remarriage.

If it stands, will a licensed minister be able to divorce or remarry based on their spouse accidentally being seen in a bathing suit at a pool when another man suddenly arrives?

This isn't just a local licensed minister giving this definition. It is someone who holds numerous offices within the UPC, including high level positions."

---------------------
Lois, I would add that the indifference shown by the District Supt. on the matter which came before him via letter .... and in my own experience - my dad served on the Metro District board - the District board of Georgia no doubt met either formally or informally about this ...

Their indifference to address this definition given by the General Secretary of the Georgia board which is at the VERY CORE OF THIS MATTER ... can only be interpreted as tacit approval of his definition ...

Yes, the UPCI manual defines these as sexual acts but also allows a district board to determine other acts that are perverse or immoral

By choosing to not censure or address this matter in a public manner, or with Ms. Driver, one must believe that their apathy is tacit stamp of approval of a board member's definition of fornication.

Georgia Board, is exhibitionism and/or other forms of immodesty ... FORNICATION?
Is there a difference between immodesty (commonly viewed as wearing pants, or skirt above the knee) and exhibitionism?
How much skin qualifies for exhibitionism? What settings?
Is this grounds for divorce?

Has Pastor Fogarty been corrected in defining fornication seemingly contrary to how it is defined by the manual and scripturally ... and for condoning divorce on the grounds he gave?

This is a matter of precedence.

Good questions, Dan.

Is the UPC or any other religious body quick to evaluate and examine itself, correct itself, or confess its faults with transparency and humility? The other option is to encircle the wagons and to justify unbiblical actions in order to save face. I'm looking forward to how the new leadership will address this situation. I'm hoping and praying for integrity and honesty to win out. May God help them to do the right thing.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Good questions, Dan.

Is the UPC or any other religious body quick to evaluate and examine itself, correct itself, or confess its faults with transparency and humility? The other option is to encircle the wagons and to justify unbiblical actions in order to save face. I'm looking forward to how the new leadership will address this situation. I'm hoping and praying for integrity and honesty to win out. May God help them to do the right thing.

You all are talking about one man right?

You can't hold an organization accountable for the actions of one individual.

Sometimes when I read these UPCI hate threads I can't help thinking it is like a few of you are involved in a fatal attraction.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You all are talking about one man right?

You can't hold an organization accountable for the actions of one individual.

Sometimes when I read these UPCI hate threads I can't help thinking it is like a few of you are involved in a fatal attraction.

But I don't hate the UPC.

It's not one man involved in this situation. This complaint should have never gone to court. It had been brought to the pastor and then the district level before it was ever brought court. They had ample opportunity to address the matter and all of its issues but they did nothing. Dan's questions are valid. I can understand your comments since much of the bluster is coming from Dan, whom most of us see as having an agenda against the UPC, but Dan is making excellent points which you try to brush away with comments that don't address the real issues. It's not about one man, it's about the definition of fornication and remarriage. It's about how the UPC will respond to this matter.

There was a similar situation in Galatia back in the early days of the church. Some were going around saying Christians had to be circumcised and keepers of the law of Moses to be saved. The early church did the right thing. They sought God. They didn't let error continue. The Bible doesn't tell us that after they found the will of God that they discommunicated or set at nought those who were to be found in error, either.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Is this thread really necessary?

I don't think that everything that's been discussed was necessary or even right. But the thread as a whole is needed. Perhaps instead of focusing on one situation, we should have asked the questions about a variety of situations we've seen or experienced in regard to church discipline, pastoral authority, divorce and remarriage, and the definition of fornication. There would still have been strong objections, but those are very relevant topics.

I don't hate the UPC either, BTW. I am frustrated with some things I've seen happen and some doctrines I've seen taught. It is sad that the event discussed here ever took place. Sad for the woman who was slandered; for the pastor who made a mistake, refused to admit it, and faced a jury because of it; sad for the new couple and the churches that are associated with the event because they will deal with the results of this. On the other hand, I do hope that the decision on this case will calm the voices of the more radical pulpits in the Oneness movement, and give everyone-Apostolic and non-Apostolic, pastors and saints-a reason to stop and think before they say something negative against someone else.