Communism vs Christianity

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

Marx's views on religion really have nothing to do with his views on socialism...

Yes, he mixed them, but you can easily have socialism without Marx's view on religion... They are mixed because the men who have implemented them were evil, but that doesn't mean the idea of everyone sharing wealth is evil...

So, please, answer the question:

Please show me one scripture verse where it says everyone sharing equally in everything earned so that no one was poor and everyone had what they needed (and more) is "of the devil"...

don't dodge it this time...

But aren't WE talking about religion? His view was a humanistic social method...what is the church method?

Originally Posted by Ferd

My major in college was history bub. I know what I said and meant it. Clearly Marx and Angles were out to set up a system the replaced the outgrowth of the industrial revolution. There is however, a difference between what they wanted to do and what their final Manifesto in fact did.

I am not arguing any point on the subject of Capitalism. We are discussing Communism. We can discuss the political outgrowths and eventual states that arose or we can stick to a discussion of the principles outlined by Karl Marx. I don’t care which one you want to talk about. In either event, communism is a horrible task master that leads to destruction of nations and people and supplants God and places mankind at the center.

This has what to do with what I said??? (nothing...)

socialism still had nothing to do with Marx's dislike for religion... you can remove all of his anti-religion stuff and his theory on socialism still stand just fine without them...

and Communism is "a cruel taskmaster" because they aren't really communistic, they are dictatorships...

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This is a false analogy. There are good and bad aspects to each.

Capitalism is an economic system. It is not inheritly about greed

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitalism
n. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Notice nothing in that system requires greed. It's humans that turn Capitalism into a means of their own greed. Christianity has been used to humans to foment their own greed.

True communism would be everyone giving up careers and living all on a farm and doing the same work. That's an impossible dream. It's unrealistic to expect someone that spend half their life in college to become a doctor to get paid the same as someone that never went to college.

However biblical communism demands that the one with more help the ones with less. Biblical communism does not seek it's own, is not greedy.

Politically though, the church should be the perfect counter part to all that is bad. It is to be just, fair, moral, giving, producing,warning, sacrificing. It does not seek to cause an uprising or insurrection but it seeks to reform humanity. Humanity is at the core of every corrupt government

your idea of capitalism is from an American (and thus extremely biased) source...

and your idea of communism is not correct either... Socialism can be done in any society, it doesn't have to be done on a farm... its just easier on a farm or someplace where everyone does the same work because you don't have to convince people who, in some societies are in different classes, to accept the same pay for the work they do...

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think we need to distinguish biblical communism from social humanistic communism, which seeks to take your private property and make it everyone elses. The main problem with that is it never worked anywhere...someone always was in control and as a result had more power and had his or her own property contrary to the goal

there is no distinction...

sharing stuff among everyone = socialism (communism)

and your "main problem" has nothing to do with actual socialism/communism and, again, is getting to having a problem with Communism (read: the governments that have lied and said they were communistic)

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But aren't WE talking about religion? His view was a humanistic social method...what is the church method?

no, we aren't talking about religion... We are talking about his social theories... To honestly judge his social theories (especially in this type of biased crowd) you have to ignore his religious theories....

Like I said, Marx's theories on religion can be removed from his Manifesto and everything else he did, and the theories on socialism will still work and stand by themselves... the religious stuff wasn't needed for the social stuff...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

your idea of capitalism is from an American (and thus extremely biased) source...

You mean my definition....uh, ok quote a NON American dictionary. Just asserting as you do without proof is not proof

and your idea of communism is not correct either... Socialism can be done in any society, it doesn't have to be done on a farm.

You missed the point.... What is happening here is you can't see the forest for the trees. Look at the POINT, not the analogy or example

its just easier on a farm or someplace where everyone does the same work because you don't have to convince people who, in some societies are in different classes, to accept the same pay for the work they do...

Did you GET the point though? A doctor is not a class. It's a career. It's a job. A Lord is a class. A commoner is a class. A commoner though can be a doctor and so can a Lord (britain)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

no, we aren't talking about religion... We are talking about his social theories... To honestly judge his social theories (especially in this type of biased crowd) you have to ignore his religious theories....

Like I said, Marx's theories on religion can be removed from his Manifesto and everything else he did, and the theories on socialism will still work and stand by themselves... the religious stuff wasn't needed for the social stuff...

My bad! I mis-read the title...Communism vs Christianity...that's what I read. I guess I was wrong..or I was wrong to assume Christianity was religion.

Who is "his social theories"? Look, the topic says Christianity. Were you not talking about the Church being communistic? I ask then again WHOSE form of communism? Marx? His theories on religion can be removed? Why would anyone believe the Church should adhere to HIS form of communism sans religious view?

Communism vs Christianity, Christianity and communism. I say, if you want the true understanding of that, go to the bible

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

there is no distinction...

sharing stuff among everyone = socialism (communism)

and your "main problem" has nothing to do with actual socialism/communism and, again, is getting to having a problem with Communism (read: the governments that have lied and said they were communistic)

Again, you assert, but you don't proof. You say there is no distinction between Biblical communism and the social communism developed by non bible believing humanists...are you serious? Can you prove that? Quote scriptures to prove Marx was right on biblically?

You mean my definition....uh, ok quote a NON American dictionary. Just asserting as you do without proof is not proof

they'll be just as biased in other ways... The point is that greed is inherent in capitalism... If everyone didn't want to "keep up with the joneses" the whole economy would be in trouble...

You missed the point.... What is happening here is you can't see the forest for the trees. Look at the POINT, not the analogy or example

There was no analogy... you said it had to be done on a farm, not true...

Did you GET the point though? A doctor is not a class. It's a career. It's a job. A Lord is a class. A commoner is a class. A commoner though can be a doctor and so can a Lord (britain)

no... being a doctor is a class because doctors have money...

being a garbageman is a different class because garbagemen don't have money...

there is just as much a "class system" in America as there was in midieval Europe... The only difference is sometimes you can switch classes, but then again, most of the time you can't...

Originally Posted by Praxeas

My bad! I mis-read the title...Communism vs Christianity...that's what I read. I guess I was wrong..or I was wrong to assume Christianity was religion.

Who is "his social theories"? Look, the topic says Christianity. Were you not talking about the Church being communistic? I ask then again WHOSE form of communism? Marx? His theories on religion can be removed? Why would anyone believe the Church should adhere to HIS form of communism sans religious view?

Communism vs Christianity, Christianity and communism. I say, if you want the true understanding of that, go to the bible

Ummm... my point from the beginning of this thread is that socialistic theory has NOTHING to do with Christianity...

and why would anyone not want the socialistic society Marx envisioned??? Do you like having the poor and homeless and destitute around you??

and the only real understanding of communism and Christianity you can get from the Bible is that the early church used a form of socialism... which would mean its good...