The Other General Conference in Houston 9.13-15 - Page 10

Mr. Smith · #91 08-17-2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

Mr. Smith ... sheesh ... even Jesus cried.

There's an old saying that says, "He that prays much in public prays little in private." Maybe the same goes for crying.

Actually, there have been times I wept through sermon preparation and didn't shed a tear while speaking it. Maybe Joel weeps his butt off when he's assembling his notes!

Mr. Smith · #92 08-17-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII

When you're THE Word breathing out Rhema ... you kind of got some leeway ... but there were time he would quote the prophets and plenty of reference to the Torah and Tanakh

Sure.....but I think sometimes we demand a bible verse recital out of our ministers when in reality, we could use some of the same "Rhema Word" you're speaking of. Some of the most powerful sermons I've ever heard were simply stories. Jesus master the art of telling stories. I would say the most impacting sermons I've heard in my life, that moved me the most and promoted the most life-change in me, were stories that were brought to s spiritual point.

True, Jesus was THE WORD, but we wanna be like Him, right?

Maximilian · #93 08-17-2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Paul talked a LOT about "Me" and how we come off to an unbelieving world. I see quite a bit in the NT that indicates personal fulfillment through Jesus Christ.

"Self-centered gospel"?? Really? What does that mean? If I'm telling people to be saved, would I be speaking a self-centered gospel? After all, I'm telling them how to make THEMSELVES better. If I'm preaching for people to stop sinning, wouldn't be self-centered based on the same principle?

Come on, Maxi, don't fall for the negative David Wilkerson, Hank Haanagraaf, condemn everyone talk that goes around.

I don't fall for negativity, I've fallen for the reality of the Gospel.

Paul said he came to preach the cross, he preached about a suffering and resurrected Jesus. He preached about a future hope and present reality. He preached about this Messiah and what it means to all of our story. He was Jesus-centered. The alternative to rub-your-back Olsteen is not Wilkerson (though he says some good things). Jesus didn't come to help you get a new business and get rich. He came to give you life, and he added the following Him may even cost you something. He warned about people who followed and turned back, and called them unworthy. Boehnhoffer's Cost of Discipleship comes to mind here. Paul was all about discipleship. I don't hear Discipleship in the Sunday shows at Lakewood. Maybe it happens at other times, maybe... but our gathering times should be use to point our lives back to the cross. Our we believing He is great? Our we believing He is in control? Are we believing He is most glorious? Are we believing He is most gracious? Preach Jesus and Him crucified.

50 ways to live a better life.... sure, read it on the side. But that's not "main course" discipleship.

Maximilian · #94 08-17-2010, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Sure.....but I think sometimes we demand a bible verse recital out of our ministers when in reality, we could use some of the same "Rhema Word" you're speaking of. Some of the most powerful sermons I've ever heard were simply stories. Jesus master the art of telling stories. I would say the most impacting sermons I've heard in my life, that moved me the most and promoted the most life-change in me, were stories that were brought to s spiritual point.

True, Jesus was THE WORD, but we wanna be like Him, right?

You can't even begin to compare Osteen's stories to Jesus' sometimes hard and other times "confounding" sayings. Jesus' were a call to repentance and trust in Him... Osteen's are assurance in a twisted "I can do all things through Christ" hermeneutic.

Maximilian · #95 08-17-2010, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

There's an old saying that says, "He that prays much in public prays little in private." Maybe the same goes for crying.

Actually, there have been times I wept through sermon preparation and didn't shed a tear while speaking it. Maybe Joel weeps his butt off when he's assembling his notes!

maybe.

Maximilian · #96 08-17-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Paul talked a LOT about "Me" and how we come off to an unbelieving world. I see quite a bit in the NT that indicates personal fulfillment through Jesus Christ.

"Self-centered gospel"?? Really? What does that mean? If I'm telling people to be saved, would I be speaking a self-centered gospel? After all, I'm telling them how to make THEMSELVES better. If I'm preaching for people to stop sinning, wouldn't be self-centered based on the same principle?

Come on, Maxi, don't fall for the negative David Wilkerson, Hank Haanagraaf, condemn everyone talk that goes around.

And by the way, if that's how it sounds when we present the Gospel, we've done it wrong. It's not about how we make ourselves better, it's how He has brought life to us and how the Spirit is helping us live life to the fullest.

Maximilian · #97 08-17-2010, 10:04 PM

Come on, Mr. Smith, bring it

BTW, Mr. Smith, have you read Jesus Manifesto by Sweet? The essay version (not the book)? Would love to hear your feedback on that. I meant to mention that to you awhile back.

Mr. Smith · #98 08-17-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

You can't even begin to compare Osteen's stories to Jesus' sometimes hard and other times "confounding" sayings. Jesus' were a call to repentance and trust in Him... Osteen's are assurance in a twisted "I can do all things through Christ" hermeneutic.

I didn't compare him to Jesus!

Come on. I was referring to DA's reference to his lack of scripture. And I'm saying that lots of scripture does not a good sermon make.

Maximilian · #99 08-17-2010, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

I didn't compare him to Jesus!

Come on. I was referring to DA's reference to his lack of scripture. And I'm saying that lots of scripture does not a good sermon make.

This is very true.

Feeling like you are applying and sticking to the Bible sure brings credibility and balance though.

Mr. Smith · #**100** 08-17-2010, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

I don't fall for negativity, I've fallen for the reality of the Gospel.

Paul said he came to preach the cross, he preached about a suffering and resurrected Jesus. He preached about a future hope and present reality. He preached about this Messiah and what it means to all of our story. He was Jesus-centered. The alternative to rub-your-back Olsteen is not Wilkerson (though he says some good things). Jesus didn't come to help you get a new business and get rich. He came to give you life, and he added the following Him may even cost you something. He warned about people who followed and turned back, and called them unworthy. Boehnhoffer's Cost of Discipleship comes to mind here. Paul was all about discipleship. I don't hear Discipleship in the Sunday shows at Lakewood. Maybe it happens at other times, maybe... but our gathering times should be use to point our lives back to the cross. Our we believing He is great? Our we believing He is in control? Are we believing He is most glorious? Are we believing He is most gracious? Preach Jesus and Him crucified.

50 ways to live a better life.... sure, read it on the side. But that's not "main course" discipleship.

So are you saying that every sermon that has value has to be about the cross, only? I don't disagree with your overall premise here, though. I just don't think Joel Osteen is nearly as shallow as he's accused of.

Bottom line:

Osteen? No problem.
Hagee? No way.