Where exactly the UPCI got tithing from?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

But here’s the flip side. What if I said the sheep don’t want to be saved? They don’t want the vaccine? They only see the bringer of knowledge as an intrusion. You see, it takes two to make a relationship. The leadership and the led. Remember Jesus said, if the blind lead the blind they both fall into a ditch. It’s like this an evangelist goes to a church, he preaches to the congregation and starts to present some teaching other than what is taught by the pastor. While the teaching might have book, chapter, and verse. It’s not what is taught by the pastor, the presbyter, the general superintendent, or their organization. Brother and Sister Foofoofnick are on an Internet forum. While on the forum they watch two posters have a hair pulling contest concerning a teaching. A teaching forbidden by their church. While they understood the scriptures, even figured out how everything fit perfect logic. They still won’t accept it. You see, there is more to the whole Church situation than book, chapter, and verse. It’s a community. It’s a family. Their ministry means a lot to that couple who read the debate on a forum. But, when the computer is shut off the two posters stuck in a ecclesiastical cat fight aren’t in their church family. I think I said this before, it’s a little more than just handing out golden manna of the word. The bigger picture is that people like their church. Love their church family, and love their pastor and his family.

Not trying to discourage anyone from bringing forth what they believe. Just don’t be surprised when they nod their heads. Amen loud and clear. Then turn around and still reject the vaccine

Of course the same argument could be used about a pastor who is a drunkard. “He doesn’t know that drunkards will not go to heaven. He sincerely believes that being drunk is not a salvation issue. The church family is okay with it. Why rock the boat.” Aaaand you could take out drunkard an insert adulterer. Etc.

Amiright???

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Of course the same argument could be used about a pastor who is a drunkard. “He doesn’t know that drunkards will not go to heaven. He sincerely believes that being drunk is not a salvation issue. The church family is okay with it. Why rock the boat.” Aaaand you could take out drunkard an insert adulterer. Etc.

Amiright???

I think we could agree that a drunk pastor is a wee bit different than a guy teaching tithes? Ya think?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I think we could agree that a drunk pastor is a wee bit different than a guy teaching tithes? Ya think?

Of course it’s different. But according to scripture they wind up the same place. Different sin. Same destination.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We’ve come full circle. I’ve quoted this scripture already. And went through the definitions of lie. Remember?

[Tithesmeister]

These pastors who are teaching tithing need to be preached to. Just like sorcerers and murderers do. They ALL need to repent.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Of course it’s different. But according to scripture they wind up the same place. Different sin. Same destination.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We’ve come full circle. I’ve quoted this scripture already. And went through the definitions of lie. Remember?

Lying is done intentionally. Hence the reason it’s a chargeable offense in the Bible. If you go through the list of offenses found in the above portion of scripture each item is premeditated. Teaching something in ignorance isn’t premeditated, lying to deceive. In 1 Timothy 1:13-14 the Apostle explains to the young evangelist that he (Paul) was a blasphemer, a persecutor of Christians, yet obtained mercy, because he did it ignorantly in unbelief. Now, if Paul would have went back to those errors once he received the epiphany from Christ, he would have been charged.

Throwing out knowledge to people. Or posting a bunch of scriptures and calling it good, doesn’t mean people are converted. Or are accountable because you went page upon pages of verses and they just didn’t get what you are teaching.
It takes time, it takes relationship on so many levels. Someone may get an epiphany after you posted one verse. But it may had been their time. Yet others just don’t get it. Keep preaching and teaching the opposite of what you tried to teach them. In the parable of the sower Jesus talks about the difference of the conditions of the heart. How people are receptive. How they can receive and yet still lose out to the surrounding conditions.

Teaching, preaching, and leading is a little more nuanced as we tend to think. When we get armed with the truth, we believe anyone who can’t see what is obvious in our own eyes, are intentionally being deceptive. When in fact just don’t get it. Either we aren’t explaining it clearly, they really need a bigger picture, or the right time. Or we stink at teaching. I know we don’t want to admit the latter, but if we aren’t reaching them we need to re-examine our approach.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Lying is done intentionally. Hence the reason it’s a chargeable offense in the Bible. If you go through the list of offenses found in the above portion of scripture each item is premeditated. Teaching something in ignorance isn’t premeditated, lying to deceive. In 1 Timothy 1:13-14 the Apostle explains to the young evangelist that he (Paul) was a blasphemer, a persecutor of Christians, yet obtained mercy, because he did it ignorantly in unbelief. Now, if Paul would have went back to those errors once he received the epiphany from Christ, he would have been charged.

Throwing out knowledge to people. Or posting a bunch of scriptures and calling it good, doesn’t mean people are converted. Or are accountable because you went page upon pages of verses and they just didn’t get what you are teaching.
It takes time, it takes relationship on so many levels. Someone may get an epiphany after you posted one verse. But it may had been their time. Yet others just don’t get it. Keep preaching and teaching the opposite of what you tried to teach them. In the parable of the sower Jesus talks about the difference of the conditions of the heart. How people are receptive. How they can receive and yet still lose out to the surrounding conditions.

Teaching, preaching, and leading is a little more nuanced as we tend to think. When we get armed with the truth, we believe anyone who can’t see what is obvious in our own eyes, are intentionally being deceptive. When in fact just don’t get it. Either we aren’t explaining it clearly, they really need a bigger picture, or the right time. Or we stink at teaching. I know we don’t want to admit the latter, but if we aren’t reaching them we need to re-examine our approach.

It could be that the teaching wasn't convincing, or it could be:

[2Pe 3:5 KJV] 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, ...


So, how do you call people that just don't want to know or acknowledge the Biblical truth because in the back of their mind, they are assessing the consequences of doing so? (I would run out of income, I would be kicked out of the fellowship, I would lose friends, etc...)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

It could be that the teaching wasn't convincing, or it could be:

[2Pe 3:5 KJV] 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, ...


So, how do you call people that just don't want to know or acknowledge the Biblical truth because in the back of their mind, they are assessing the consequences of doing so? (I would run out of income, I would be kicked out of the fellowship, I would lose friends, etc...)

I believe Tithemister and myself dealt with this already. Paul said he assaulted Christians unknowingly. He attacked them in unbelief. Therefore God’s grace is available to him to proceed in newness of life. Yet, if Paul would have met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and received an epiphany, yet continued to assault Christians. Then he would be guilty as charged. Yet, no one can assume that everyone who preaches and teaches NT tithing is doing it in deception.

So, anyone who doesn’t believe like you is doing it out of deception? Every single Christian who refuses to see it as you do really came to an epiphany, but just refuse to follow your teaching?

I don’t think you believe that.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I believe Tithemister and myself dealt with this already. Paul said he assaulted Christians unknowingly. He attacked them in unbelief. Therefore God’s grace is available to him to proceed in newness of life. Yet, if Paul would have met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and received an epiphany, yet continued to assault Christians. Then he would be guilty as charged. Yet, no one can assume that everyone who preaches and teaches NT tithing is doing it in deception.

So, anyone who doesn’t believe like you is doing it out of deception? Every single Christian who refuses to see it as you do really came to an epiphany, but just refuse to follow your teaching?

I don’t think you believe that.

Brother EB,

I can definitely see your point that perhaps many are teaching this false doctrine from a perspective of ignorance. And I agree that they are less offensive than they who teach it from a position of greed or intentional deception. However, I think that ignorance is becoming more and more intentional, as Coksiw has alluded to. We live in the Information Age. Unless you live under a rock, on a deserted island, there is a high probability that you have heard that the doctrine you (not you but preachers who teach the UPCI tithe doctrine) teach may not be all that you believe it to be. Now at this point the honest reaction would be to dig into the Word and defend it or if that is not possible to repent and reform. Zacchaeus is such an example. In fact I believe he may be a better example than Paul. What did Zacchaeus do? He gave half of his goods to the poor. And if he had defrauded anyone, he would restore that fourfold. He didn’t qualify it by saying that he would restore them but only if it was intentional. It was unequivocal. Jesus’ response is noteworthy: “this day is salvation come to this house”.

Paul, on the other hand, is zealously persecuting Christians. But Paul was unsaved. I don’t think your position is that these “men of God” teaching tithing to their own benefit, are unsaved. Paul did not have the benefit of the Holy Ghost to lead and guide him unto all truth. These preachers do (allegedly). Therefore I believe that Zacchaeus may be the better example to quote.

Hence, these preachers need to repay all tithes times four. Allegedly

Having said that, my focus has always been to go to the source. I have debated this subject with many preachers and their wives. My experience is that they are willfully blind. They refuse to acknowledge the truth. Some have been very angry about it, and many have asked “ well how do we fund the church “? My answer is firstly we don’t lie. That should be obvious. Next I suggest voluntary giving. Almost without fail they say that would never work. They have faith alright but their faith is in dead presidents. It’s not in God, and it’s not in their congregation.

So the implication is that they believe lying is necessary, otherwise the church cannot survive. What an oxymoron.

I have also debated with another group of preachers, same mostly UPCI organization, but who were not receiving tithes, whether they be assistant pastors, or possibly retired. Incredibly enough this group is usually receptive to the doctrine being false. One such preacher even said that we Pentecostal preachers aren’t known for being scholarly in regards to scripture. Interesting perspective when you think about it.

Here’s a question to consider:

When someone who is part of the church, gives to the “church” does the true church get richer? Or poorer?

Think about it.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I believe Tithemister and myself dealt with this already. Paul said he assaulted Christians unknowingly. He attacked them in unbelief. Therefore God’s grace is available to him to proceed in newness of life. Yet, if Paul would have met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and received an epiphany, yet continued to assault Christians. Then he would be guilty as charged. Yet, no one can assume that everyone who preaches and teaches NT tithing is doing it in deception.

So, anyone who doesn’t believe like you is doing it out of deception? Every single Christian who refuses to see it as you do really came to an epiphany, but just refuse to follow your teaching?

I don’t think you believe that.

These people we are talking about are supposedly filled with the Spirit, led by the Spirit, ... Saul was not.

[Jhn 5:44 KJV] 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?

They reject the obvious truth on the basis of its consequences (the glory from one another, the fellowship, peer pressure, acceptance, etc...). In my opinion, once they are exposed to the truth, and the historical evidence of its falsehood is openly available, and they still reject it, that's call unfaithfulness to the written Word, hardening of the heart. I'm using nice words.

There are truths that are harder to dig and I understand that people have their good points (e.g. Sabbath, some holiness topics, the millennium). Tithing, on the other hand, is like the Trinity, ... you have to dig, and twist, and do gymnastic to come up with. They reject not because of lack of good convincing teaching.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

These people we are talking about are supposedly filled with the Spirit, led by the Spirit, ... Saul was not.

[Jhn 5:44 KJV] 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?

They reject the obvious truth on the basis of its consequences (the glory from one another, the fellowship, peer pressure, acceptance, etc...). In my opinion, once they are exposed to the truth, and the historical evidence of its falsehood is openly available, and they still reject it, that's call unfaithfulness to the written Word, hardening of the heart. I'm using nice words.

There are truths that are harder to dig and I understand that people have their good points (e.g. Sabbath, some holiness topics, the millennium). Tithing, on the other hand, is like the Trinity, ... you have to dig, and twist, and do gymnastic to come up with. They reject not because of lack of good convincing teaching.

Are you saying that a Trinitarian like James White doesn’t believe in the Trinity?

Really?