Michlow, I hope you answer my above post about tongues but I have another question for you. You said God told you to leave an apostolic church. Was that to attend a different church or to leave church altogether? I am sure that you are aware that the bible says we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. So why would God tell you something contrary to his word? What exactly did he tell you? If you don't mind me asking.
First, you need to understand, that I don't necessarily believe that God wrote the Bible...I know that's another whole discussion right there, but I felt the need to add it here to answer your question about why God would tell me something "contrary to his word".
Which is not to say that I don't believe that the Bible has a place and use, as it does contain wisdom, and the experiences of many others who through the ages have searched for the divine.
Also, I would be the first admit that God showed me what He showed me...how I interpreted it, and what I did thereafter is on me. You also need to understand that at the time I was desperate, I was trying so hard to find Jesus among all the rules, and fear, and manipulation. Anyway, here is the story....
I was on vacation, and I was visiting a UPC church attended by several friends. The preacher’s sermon was from Mark 2, where some men bring a paralyzed man for healing, but cannot get through to Jesus because of the crowd, and so they lower him through the roof. The preacher was focused on the two men who carried their friend to Jesus, and was talking about bringing people to church.
So as I was sitting there, only half listening it was like the world around me stopped for a minute, and I had an epiphany. I really feel like God spoke to me, “Michelle, you are like that paralyzed man. You are trying so hard to get to me, but you are being blocked. The ones blocking you are the scribes and the Pharisees. The ones who are “closest to me” are the ones that are preventing you from getting through. It’s time to try and unorthodox route.”
Now I had been contemplating leaving for several years, so I real felt that God was telling me it was time. And truly, I still believe that. Though, he hasn’t said much since then, so I take full responsibility for the rest.
“Michelle, you are like that paralyzed man. You are trying so hard to get to me, but you are being blocked. The ones blocking you are the scribes and the Pharisees. The ones who are “closest to me” are the ones that are preventing you from getting through. It’s time to try and unorthodox route.”
I can relate to this. There is so much "religious thought" in my brain, that I sometimes have a very hard time sorting out what is God, and what is religion. I have said several times that I feel like there is a lot of religion getting between me and God.
I'm not quite as far removed as Timmy and michlow. However, I'm not a christian. I've doubted everything and still doubt most everything.
This struck me as funny, because I still think of myself as a Christian, though I don't really care for the term. But the truth, is I'm a little too fond of Jesus to be anything else.
Here's my theory. Tongues, messages from God, miracles, all that kind of thing: it could be a genuine supernatural God-initiated phenomenon. At least, in some cases it could be. And that right there ("in some cases" and "it could be") is the heart of the issue, to me. Now, I'm going to kinda violate the "don't tell God what He can or can't do" rule that seems to be in effect. But it's not that I think God can or can't do something. Here's what I think God won't do: use methods of communicating and interacting with humans that are unreliable (nobody can tell if it really was God or not) and easy to fake or lie about. It also creates confusion, fear, despair ("why doesn't it ever work for me?"), guilt, etc. I seriously doubt that God is behind it.
I'm not saying anyone here is lying or intentionally faking. And recall where I said it could be genuine. IMO, God won't do that, but He could if He wanted to. If He does, I don't see how anyone could say it's a good thing to do, given the reality of how often and in what circumstances it happens.
So, how do I account for the non-lying, non-faking experiences that so often happen, such as God's instructions for Mich to get out of the UPCI? The human mind is a truly amazing thing. It is capable of working in ways that astonish us, giving us hunches that often pan out, intuition, and ideas seem to pop in from out of the blue. I think that's just the way the brain works. Perhaps God designed it that way. It doesn't always work out, when such things happen, just as it doesn't always work out in the more "normal" workings of the brain -- we puzzle over some kind of problem and we never actually solve it. (Just like when prayers don't always heal the sick.)
Mich had been contemplating leaving for a long time before her epiphany. My best guess is that it all came to a head at some specific time, her mind went into an alternative "mode" where her consciousness was altered, and things became suddenly clear to her. This is not to discount or doubt the experience, not at all. It was a very real experience, very profound. It's just my offer of an alternative possibility of the underlying mechanism. And just my two cents.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Here's my theory. Tongues, messages from God, miracles, all that kind of thing: it could be a genuine supernatural God-initiated phenomenon. At least, in some cases it could be. And that right there ("in some cases" and "it could be") is the heart of the issue, to me. Now, I'm going to kinda violate the "don't tell God what He can or can't do" rule that seems to be in effect. But it's not that I think God can or can't do something. Here's what I think God won't do: use methods of communicating and interacting with humans that are unreliable (nobody can tell if it really was God or not) and easy to fake or lie about. It also creates confusion, fear, despair ("why doesn't it ever work for me?"), guilt, etc. I seriously doubt that God is behind it.
I'm not saying anyone here is lying or intentionally faking. And recall where I said it could be genuine. IMO, God won't do that, but He could if He wanted to. If He does, I don't see how anyone could say it's a good thing to do, given the reality of how often and in what circumstances it happens.
So, how do I account for the non-lying, non-faking experiences that so often happen, such as God's instructions for Mich to get out of the UPCI? The human mind is a truly amazing thing. It is capable of working in ways that astonish us, giving us hunches that often pan out, intuition, and ideas seem to pop in from out of the blue. I think that's just the way the brain works. Perhaps God designed it that way. It doesn't always work out, when such things happen, just as it doesn't always work out in the more "normal" workings of the brain -- we puzzle over some kind of problem and we never actually solve it. (Just like when prayers don't always heal the sick.)
Mich had been contemplating leaving for a long time before her epiphany. My best guess is that it all came to a head at some specific time, her mind went into an alternative "mode" where her consciousness was altered, and things became suddenly clear to her. This is not to discount or doubt the experience, not at all. It was a very real experience, very profound. It's just my offer of an alternative possibility of the underlying mechanism. And just my two cents.
I don't disagree with any of that. When I am talking to Christian's I might credit the Spirit, when I am talking to others I might credit my gut. (which has a pretty good percentage in making good decisions!). I just choose to believe that my intuition is a way in which God interacts with me. I also fully admit that it comforts me to believe that.
I don't disagree with any of that. When I am talking to Christian's I might credit the Spirit, when I am talking to others I might credit my gut. (which has a pretty good percentage in making good decisions!). I just choose to believe that my intuition is a way in which God interacts with me. I also fully admit that it comforts me to believe that.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I'm not quite as far removed as Timmy and michlow. However, I'm not a christian. I've doubted everything and still doubt most everything.
I was baptized and spoke in tongues. I didn't feel much when I was baptized. Maybe relief. Maybe a little bit of feeling like I did something right and good. Baptism is not about feelings though.
As far as speaking in tongues, it was not repeated gibberish. My feelings at the time of speaking in tongues also confirms that it was not repeated gibberish. However, I doubt the legitimacy of any of my tongues experiences and since mine are just like everyone elses then I doubt theirs also. This does not mean I think they just repeat gibberish... One of the biggest confirmations for me that my tongues weren't legit is that to this day I feel that I could speak in them if I just closed my eyes, tightened up on the inside and let that tightness go up my throat and then began to speak. Heck, even the emotions that accompanied them somewhat return when I go through these motions and I'm not even a Christian.
Jfrog, my first experience with tongues was completely involuntary tongues. I have absolutely no doubt about their legitimacy. Tongues after that initial experience have been a mixture of voluntary and involuntary. I can understand your ddoubt because we can repeat these tongue experiences at will, but there are at least 3 occasions when tongues were completely involuntary and undeniable to me personally. I think you should seek a truly undeniable experience, but it takes being sold out to have it.
Jfrog, my first experience with tongues was completely involuntary tongues. I have absolutely no doubt about their legitimacy. Tongues after that initial experience have been a mixture of voluntary and involuntary. I can understand your ddoubt because we can repeat these tongue experiences at will, but there are at least 3 occasions when tongues were completely involuntary and undeniable to me personally. I think you should seek a truly undeniable experience, but it takes being sold out to have it.
I've heard of cases where the person couldn't stop speaking in tongues when they tried, and couldn't speak English when they tried. Was your experience like this?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I've heard of cases where the person couldn't stop speaking in tongues when they tried, and couldn't speak English when they tried. Was your experience like this?
no, my involuntary tongues only lasted a few minutes but it was just like a gush of water flowing from my spirit.
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