Can Women Pastor ?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by rdp

I see, the "nicest lady I will meet" scornfully refers to me as "Bible expert" in total derisiveness????? Not hardly.

Yep, I'll keep on believing the plain words of the great apostle Paul! Hopefully someday you'll do the same & get honest w/ the text of I Tim. 2, which is not contextually dealing w/ "reaching the lost"....for about the 11th time now!!

Sheesh................

There are those that are always going to see things from a closed minded point of view without taking into concideration all areas of interpretation. And instead of winning souls to God chase them away. Worship and service to God is to be with spirit and truth. Not listening to the spirit is the down fall of two many. Paul tells us to study rightly dividing the word. You say you will keep believing the plain words of Paul, well Paul said God is not a respector of persons. But your translation makes God a respector of persons, making the women a lesser part of Gods creation. Paul further lays out that the women is subject to her husband, not a part of the so called 5 fold ministry. You have ask for scripture where women were used as pastor with authority, I ask you for scripture that tells us that the pastor has the authority that is demanded by most churches today.

[TJJJ]

An answer to this question.....




"NO"



If you don't like that one then......


"YES"

One of the two you are bound to like!

[Sister Alvear]

Jesus gave Mary an assignment, “Go to my brothers.”
She is to return to tell the disciples what she has seen and
heard. This woman is the first witness to the Resurrection, the
first one to carry the news to others. The doctrine that is at the heart
of Christianity was first proclaimed by a woman!

[Sister Alvear]

Given the lowly status of women in Jesus' day, it is surely ironic that the first Christian preachers of the Resurrection were not men, but women! It was to the women who had come to the tomb early on that historic first day of the week that the angels first appeared. it was these women who first heard the good news, "Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said" (Matthew 28:5-6). It was to these same women that the first expression of the Great Commission was given: "Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead: "Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead" (28:7, NASB). The disciples responded with disbelief at first and wrote the Resurrection Proclamation off as "an idle tale" (Luke 24:11). Not so the women: they no only believed without doubting but immediately began to broadcast the good news of Christ alive (Matthew 28:8). Three of the Gospels specifically mention that Jesus appeared, first of all, to women.

Since it would have been just as easy for the divine messengers to announce Christ's resurrection to the male disciples, huddled behind locked doors. We can only conclude that these post-Resurrection events, which focus so pointedly upon women, were by divine ordination
(a woman's place)

[Sister Alvear]

Matthew 28:19 ‘Therefore go and make disciples of all nations’
Mark 16:15 ‘Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation’
Luke 24:47 ‘Repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations’.
As we turn from the gospels onto the Book of Acts we see how seriously the early church took it’s command to take the gospel into the whole world. In Acts 1:8 we see how the early church waited for the promise in order to commence the Great Commission, and this scripture actually quotes the words of Jesus when he says, ‘You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth’.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Possible Origins for Prostatis as “Helper”

Where then did the word ‘helper” originate? One possible origin for “helper” for prostatis is from the “far inferior reading” in F and G.[14] F and G are ninth century manuscripts, penned centuries after the original reading. Horsley reasons that these readings might have originated “presumably in recognition of the discomfort which prostatis caused.”[15]

The Vulgate is another possibility, particularly the word adstitit in the reading “ipsa quoque adstitit multis et mihi ipsi” or “she herself has assisted many, and myself.” Obviously, those who translated the Greek into the Latin of the Vulgate chose an inaccurate rendering of the Greek prostatis (literally “to stand before or stand at the head of”) as adstitit (lit. “to stand near or at one’s side”), thus confusing a leadership role with one of proximity.


Another possible origin for “helper” might have occurred when Walter Bauer’s Greek-German Dictionary of the Writings of the New Testament and Remaining Christian Literature was “translated” into English. In his lexicon, the word “helper” did not appear as a definition for prostatis, but only “Beschützerin” (defender or protector) and “Patronin” (patron).” When his work was translated into the English by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich in the BAG, the word “helper” as a translation for prostatis came into existence. A similar occurrence took place in Gingrich’s Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: while the word “protector” and “patron” appear as suitable meanings for prostatis, Phoebe can be described only as a “helper,” with the supporting evidence limited to Rom 16:2.

Another possibility as to why “helper” was chosen in English translation is the outdated information provided in The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament (1930), which states that “we can supply no instance of the fem. prostatis” as given in Rom 16:2 “from our sources” as “protectress” or “patroness.”[16] Because this work has not been updated, one must look at other avenues to reconcile the definition of prostatis. However, the consequences of Moulton’s and Miligan’s work has been felt for years, likely giving way to the fallacy that the masculine term prostatēs is not equivalent in meaning to prostatis, despite the fact it can be argued that the feminine form prostatis is “to be equated with the masculine form [prostatēs]” through epigraphical evidence.[17]

Gee, imagine another woman forcing Phoebe to be in the 5-fold ministry. Let's see, where to begin? For starters, I checked 8 translations to see what rendering these linguistical scholars [independent of one another] adopted of "helper". Virtually all of them have translated the word simply as "helper".

Then I checked Strong's & Vine's Greek expository dictionary of the term. The word simply denotes an assisstant, or a protectress [much like Rahab], but not one of these reputable Lexicons [which draws from BAGD & Thayer's, by the way] implies ministry in the sense of the 5-fold NT ministry. So, here we go again, back to the text which states absolutely nothing regarding Phoebe being a "preacher/teacher".

Ohhhhhh so much more to say, but your mind is set against the plain commands of I Tim. 2:11-15 & I Cor. 14:34, yet oddly enough, you have no problem understanding Mt. 28:19???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

GO ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature is also God breathed scripture....You fail to see that...ad where is your knowledge about culture and why Paul quoted something that had been written to him...

Say what????????????????? Where does the text state what you say above w/ regard to I Tim. 2:11-15:_________? Scripture reference pls.???

YOU "fail to see" that I Tim. 2 & I Cor. 14 is dealing w/ the public assembly of saints....not witnessing to the lost as the Great Commission is. Sheeesh, I've pointed this out about 15 times now, & you just ignore it & plod along!?!?!?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

John 14:15, Jesus stated:

“If ye love me, keep my commandments"

If thedisciples theought like some people they would have never recieved the word of a woman that Christ had risen...BUT HE sent them to tell the brothers...

A lot of men would ave never fought with Deborah...but God cursed those that did not come to the aid of the Lord....helping Deborah was helping the Lord...

And which of these women delivered a "sermon" or Scriptural exposition to men:____________? That's what we've been waiting to see! But, rest assurred it doesn't exist, in the OT or the NT.

Strange how you would quote Jesus' words about commandments [such as I Tim. 2:11-15], then attempt to explain them away!?!?!?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Jesus gave Mary an assignment, “Go to my brothers.”
She is to return to tell the disciples what she has seen and
heard. This woman is the first witness to the Resurrection, the
first one to carry the news to others. The doctrine that is at the heart
of Christianity was first proclaimed by a woman!

I see, so every woman who speaks to another about the Ressurrection is now to be classified as in the NT 5-fold ministry????????????????

Where does the text say that she "preached a sermon" in the church [which did not even exist yet??]:__________?

You're importing your own presuppositons into the text........never stated by the same.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Given the lowly status of women in Jesus' day, it is surely ironic that the first Christian preachers of the Resurrection were not men, but women!

Here we go again! "The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch." Where in the world do you get that Mary was a "Christian preacher"??????????????????????????? It sure isn't found in the text of God's Word.

It was to the women who had come to the tomb early on that historic first day of the week that the angels first appeared. it was these women who first heard the good news, "Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said" (Matthew 28:5-6). It was to these same women that the first expression of the Great Commission was given: "Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead: "Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead" (28:7, NASB). The disciples responded with disbelief at first and wrote the Resurrection Proclamation off as "an idle tale" (Luke 24:11). Not so the women: they no only believed without doubting but immediately began to broadcast the good news of Christ alive (Matthew 28:8). Three of the Gospels specifically mention that Jesus appeared, first of all, to women.

Since it would have been just as easy for the divine messengers to announce Christ's resurrection to the male disciples, huddled behind locked doors. We can only conclude that these post-Resurrection events, which focus so pointedly upon women, were by divine ordination
(a woman's place)

It certainly was an embarrassment to the disciples that women found out about the ressurrection before they did.....especially since women were not in leadership, as you claim!