Can Women Pastor ?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

BTW, I'm really not biased. I'm just particular against puffed up arguments. I am undecided on this subject. I know, weird place to be. I definitely believe a woman can preach, it's teaching men that is the problem (which implies pastoring). However, I enjoy hearing the evidence... and evidence that's painstakingly prepared.

Honestly, I cannot for the life of me understand how in the world someone can make a statement like "I definitely believe that a woman can preach." And then look at God-breathed passages like "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man. She is to remain quiet."

Seriously Jeffrey, how in the world can you not uderstand "I do not allow....."?
The terms "teach" & "preach" are used synonymously in the Bible, just get your concordance & see how they're used. You know, maybe I should send you a copy of my book on this matter. I was very meticulous in the book. Just a thought.

Not to even mention I Cor 14:34................

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by rdp

"20 new posts"???????????????????? Wow, talk about exaggeratted attacks!! And this is relevant to the topic...........H-O-W???????? Weird stuff!

The rest is not even worthy of comment, since YOU are the one who perpetrates as the great exegete, always clothed in rags of humility, of course.

You're so silly.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by rdp

Introducing a "synagogue" theory into the text, which has absolutely NOTHING to do w/ the subject of I Tim. 2:11-15, & is totally unsupported from the actual text itself. Then, you pat him on the back saying "good job"????? I'd say you need to get your money back on your "hermeneutics" courses, or reread the books!

I'd say you need to save up for one or two yourself!

Don't say it's "unsupported" then go on to say you reject it because it doesn't agree with you.

If NT churches were very much influenced and shaped by Judaism (the faith of most of the church leaders, Christ being the fulfillment of their law), I think it's a fair assertion that these traditions would still be in the church only a year or two later. It's not really a stretch.

You must HATE exegetical commentaries, huh? Nothing but "assertions" of people interpreting passages in light of their historical context. Those silly buffoons!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by rdp

Honestly, I cannot for the life of me understand how in the world someone can make a statement like "I definitely believe that a woman can preach." And then look at God-breathed passages like "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man. She is to remain quiet."

Seriously Jeffrey, how in the world can you not uderstand "I do not allow....."?
The terms "teach" & "preach" are used synonymously in the Bible, just get your concordance & see how they're used. You know, maybe I should send you a copy of my book on this matter. I was very meticulous in the book. Just a thought.

Not to even mention I Cor 14:34................

Prax's input on the word "permit" in the Text here sums up why it's not so blatant to me. Paul offers guidance to the churches many times in his Epistles that are addressing unique situations. Permitting, allowing do not have the universal impact as a commandment of the LORD would, which is other language he's used before.

Add in the history of women preaching, and their work at spreading Pentecostalism in the world today. Add in the many other women leaders in the Bible (OT and New) that have to be minimized and explained away.

While "preaching and teaching" may be used together, they are also still very distinct in nature.

Then there's the whole "straining the gnat" idea that maybe we get so caught up on the particulars, that we lose focus of the whole thing. God wants us to reach the world. Can it be done with women teaching under the authority of their husbands? I've seen great examples of this in places where it is done with decency, respect to custom and order.

These are just some of the reasons why I'm still very undecided.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I posted the way you did to mine. If you want to make it easier here is how we do it. Wrap quotes around each part you want to respond to, then OUTSIDE the quotes put your response. Then when it's my turn to response I just quote you and then do the same.

Not very computer literate, so bare w/ me in my folly.

Im basing my argument on what the text says. In order to UNDERSTAND what the text is saying it's important to understand to who and what Paul is speaking of and why. Nor is it unprovable. It's a matter of history and scripture. Scriptures tell us it was the MEN that learned the word of God. They were.

Well here is what the text says [written to a young apostle regarding church order]: "But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet." Where does "the text say" anything about "synagogues":__________? Then why did you introduce it into the subject matter. Paul was addressing church order, which you're trying desperately to render ineffective, as if we now have a different set of rules for the church?????



I gave the only definition of making an argument from silence, which i was not doing.

Then pls. show where the text refers, or even hints at "synagogues":________? Before you scream, "I never said that," then why did you import it into the topic at hand?????? And how does that render the plain language of I Tim. 2:11-15 unapplicable?


No I argued the scriptures. I exegized them to show what they grammatically say and pointed out the text does NOT say she an not pastor. I pointed out it says she is not to have authority over a MAN, not a church or a congregation or both men and women.

Wow Prax! So giving a word definition is now "exegeting"????? Come, come now! Besides, does this mean that she can only "preach" to women [which is entirely in line w/ the Bible, tks. for the assisstance!]?



Since I never said this text was about synagogues, this is a pointless.

You imported synagogues into the subject matter. I mean did I just imagine this???




As explained before it's helpful to understand and interpret scriptures to understand who and what and why the author is writing. The church he is writing to. The church is a judaeo Christian church. Many of his readers are Jews. The first early Jewish converts still met in synagogues. Acts 26:11. So when they left they were coming from that sort of set up.

Precisely, & he was addressing church order....are we still in the church Prax? Or do we now have a different set of rules?

Yes, many of his readers were jews, but this was addressed to Timothy! Besides, pls. show me the example of a Jewish woman who exposited from the Scriptures:_________. Or perhaps a female priest:_________? Man, you're really helping out here!


I don't understand what you mean here by this verse and how it applies, anyways the meaning is talking about lording it over someone. BDAG shows this is not the simple "authority of a pastor". It's speaking of someone trying to dominate

The word primarily means simply "authority," Prax, just as it's translated, by approximately 1000 linguists combining the more reputable translations....Hmmmmmm.

RWP:The word authenteō is now cleared up by Kretschmer (Glotta, 1912, pp. 289ff.) and by Moulton and Milligan’s Vocabulary. See also Nageli, Der Wortschatz des Apostels Paulus and Deissmann, Light, etc., pp. 88f. Autodikeō was the literary word for playing the master while authenteō was the vernacular term. It comes from auṫhentes, a self-doer, a master, autocrat. It occurs in the papyri (substantive authentēs, master, verb authenteō, to domineer, adjective authentikos, authoritative, "authentic"). Modern Greek has aphentes = Effendi = "Mark."


You said let's take a look at some cooroborative evidence...but you didn't offer any to look at.

Wow, I give several Biblical facts, & you respond w/ "Where's the evidence"???? I suppose biblical facts aren't considerd as "evidence," but your "synagogue" hypothesis, never stated in the text is????? Whatever fries your chicken! Think I'll stick w/ the Bible!

Teaching and preaching are not synoymous. Preaching means to proclaim. Teaching means to educate others on a subject.

Oh how wrong you are! Jesus was "preaching and teaching" the people. He entered into the synagogues & taught the people, tell me Prax, was Jesus a preacher? Just take a look at your concordance & see how the terms are interchangeably used....be honest now!

The term Elders being in the masculine is indeed an ad nauseum argument. As I said church is feminine. Believers is masculine...does that mean females can't be believers?

Perhaps it's used "ad nauseum," because it's a very worthy point recognized for centuries now! I've already addressed your "bride" angle, which is just plain silly. Of course the term "bride" is feminine, but both men & women are seen in the church. Now, I'll grant you the same luxury of showing us where a woman ever once fills the NT Eldership:________?


Where is the evidence against a woman preacher?

I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34, for starters. Where's the evidence FOR women preachers in the church:________?

Preacher is a harold of divine truth. Doesn't a prophet harold divine truth? There are women prophets in the NT right?

Prophecy is defined as primarily "to foretell" & as Vine's says, "It means the supernatural revealing of the that which cannot be seen w/ the natural eye." It's N-O-T an exposition from the Scriptures. But since you seem to believe that it is, you should have no problem demonstrating this from the Scriptures:_________?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

all they would have to do is study WHO took women out of leadership roles...RCC...

It sure was not Jesus or Paul...

Women were NEVER in leadership roles in the NT church, biblical example pls.:______________?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Sister Dana..this might interest you...

Thus there is support for “authenteo” as meaning “to proclaim oneself the author or originator of something.” If we apply this meaning of “authenteo” to 1 Timothy 2:12, we would have “I do not allow a woman to teach nor to represent herself as the originator or source of man.” This then might be a prohibition against a woman teaching a mythology similar to that of the Gnostics in which Eve predated Adam and was his creator. Certain Gnostic myths also included the notion that Adam, who had been deluded, was liberated by the Gnosis of his more enlightened spouse. (Catherine Clark Kroeger, "The Meaning of 'Authenteo'", from "Women, Authority & The Bible" by Alvera Mickelsen, ed. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1986, pp. 229-232).

Ho-Hum, I suppose 1000 translators missed something that ya'll see?!?!? Isn't this written by a woman above?? Kinda' makes you go "Hmmmmmmm"!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You're so silly.

I see, this is all I get when I point out your inflated ideas????

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I'd say you need to save up for one or two yourself!

Don't say it's "unsupported" then go on to say you reject it because it doesn't agree with you.

If NT churches were very much influenced and shaped by Judaism (the faith of most of the church leaders, Christ being the fulfillment of their law), I think it's a fair assertion that these traditions would still be in the church only a year or two later. It's not really a stretch.

Very good Jeff, then pls, demonstrate a Jewish woman expositior of the TANAKH:__________? This merely advances the plainess of I Tim. 2:11-15.

You must HATE exegetical commentaries, huh? Nothing but "assertions" of people interpreting passages in light of their historical context. Those silly buffoons!

Ho-Hum, how many times do I have to show that records of the 1st century are so extremely scanty that it's very difficuly to assert anything relieably in a historical sense......for about the 4th time now!

[Jeffrey]

RDP, who in the NT "expounded from the Scriptures" regularly at gatherings? Where do you get that from? The first 30-60 years of Christianity was without copied "scripture" in fact. Eventually, some of the communities read Paul's writings.

The delineation of Elders, Deacons, Bishops and elders did not even have specified functions until the 2nd Century, when a church hierarchy was formed. Earlier mentions of "elders" and "overseers" were informal leadership roles, not quite developed until the 2nd Century. The Didache gives us some good background on this.