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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1101  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:21 PM
Sister Alvear's Avatar
Sister Alvear Sister Alvear is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

It doesn´t take someone very smart to understand the culture of those days...the talmud and the uphill road women have had to travel...
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  #1102  
Old 01-18-2010, 01:44 AM
DebraBunnyLuv DebraBunnyLuv is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

LOL, the 'women preacher thread' on another forum I belong too resulted in a bunch of (mostly) men conducting themselves in a (largely) unGodly manner. The thread was finally closed and the subject was banned from further discussion.

If a woman feels called to pastor it's not my job to sit in the cheap seat and judge her.
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  #1103  
Old 01-18-2010, 05:59 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
no NOT ALL WOMEN WERE IN PRISON...LOL
Sorry Sis., the Bible says that the women were in prison! You apparently deny the text. Where does the literal text say that the women "preached":__________?

"LOL" indeed!
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  #1104  
Old 01-18-2010, 06:02 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
dear ones...all is well...the fruits on our trees speak for us...
That's what trinitaians say.........hmmmm.
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  #1105  
Old 01-19-2010, 09:51 AM
ForeverBlessed's Avatar
ForeverBlessed ForeverBlessed is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
That's what trinitaians say.........hmmmm.
Then just maybe you should stop judging and let God be the judge of those with fruit on their trees.
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  #1106  
Old 01-19-2010, 11:01 AM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed View Post
Then just maybe you should stop judging and let God be the judge of those with fruit on their trees.
Oh brother, I "judge" according to the plain declarations of Scripture. Besides, would you say that a practicing homosexual is saved? Watch it, you may be "judging"?????
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  #1107  
Old 01-19-2010, 11:06 AM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
For many years many thought Junia(s) was a man--or if they admitted she was a woman, they discounted her as just someone highly regarded by the apostles. Recent scholarship proves she was both a female and an apostle! But let's start by looking at each piece of this scripture puzzle.

Romans 16:7
"Greet Andronicus and Junias (Junia) my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." NIV (The NAS and NASU both use "outstanding", the KJV uses "of note" meaning notable.)

English
Greek
Strongs Greet
aspasasthe
782 1.Andronicus
Andronikon
408 and
kai
2532
2.Junia
Iounian
2458 (the)
tous
3588 3.relatives
sungeneis
4773
my
mou
3450 and
kai
2532 4.fellow prisoners
sunaichmalootous
4869 my
mou
3450
who
hoitines
3748 are
eisin
1526 5.outstanding
episeemoi
1978 6.among
en
1722
the
tois
3588 7.apostles
apostolois
652 who
hoi
3739 also
kai
2532
8.before
pro
4253 me
emou
1700 were
gegonan
1096
in
en
1722 Christ
Christoo
5547

Andronicus means "man of victory".
Iounias-Junia , a common Latin female name meaning "youthful", a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners, Thayer's Greek Definitions. Also see the following pages for more proof.
relatives - Could mean related by blood, of the same race, or of the tribe of Benjamin.
fellow prisoners - They had once all three been imprisoned together, most likely for being Christian leaders. Paul would have gotten to know both of them very well.
outstanding - Episemos ep-is'-ay-mos - remarkable, eminent Strong's Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.
among - En, translated "among" 97 other times in the NT, in Matthew 20:26 "to be great among you" uses the same word. Expresses the idea of being within a group.
apostles - These were not of the 12, but apostle (meaning one who is sent) remained a spiritual gift, 1 Cor 12:28, and we have biblical proof that others became known as apostles as they received this spiritual gift or calling. Paul and Barnabas were apostles, Col.1:1, Acts 14:3,4.; also Silvanas and Timothy, read both 1 Thes 1:1, and 2:6.
before -These two were "in Christ" before Paul, meaning baptized before Paul was, and thus preceded him as Christians. Andronicus and Junia had more experience than Paul!

Was Junia "among" as "one of" the apostles, or just highly regarded by the apostles?

Many mentally read this scripture and add several of their own words—"They are (said to be) outstanding among (here they substitute "by") the apostles." Changing "among" and adding the other four words totally changes the meaning of this scripture! However, these four words—said to be/by—are not in the Greek text. In studying scriptures we cannot just randomly add words or change the words that are there! For the meaning "by" Paul would have used one of two totally different Greek words—para or pros—rather than using en which implies selection from within a group.1

Paul never relied on the opinions of other apostles to back his teaching or his praise.2 He knew these two very well, having been in prison with them. Why would he be saying that others thought they were outstanding? He knew them best and he was praising them as "outstanding (or eminent) among the apostles." Paul considered them apostles just as he considered himself to be an apostle. They were part of the group called apostles, they were apostles, and were setting an outstanding example.

The Wycliffe Bible Commentary states, "Paul describes them as being prominent among the apostles, and as having been Christians before him."

The United Bible Societies Handbook Series, an acknowledged authority composed of a board of respected translators, first acknowledges that they are a male/female team, "Adronicus and Junias ... could easily have been husband and wife, or brother and sister." They acknowledge that some misunderstood the sentence, "to mean 'the apostles know them well,' but a far more acceptable interpretation would imply that these...were counted as apostles and were well known, for example, 'as apostles they are well known.'"3


Why wasn't a woman among the original twelve apostles of Jesus?

A woman might well have been killed because of the moral outrage in that day and time against a woman being one of the disciples. Traveling around together in the three and one-half year training period demanded maleness of the core group of disciples. The women who did travel with them were not formally called disciples and thus could be accepted by that culture.

Remember, all of the twelve apostles were Jewish males. Did that mean that from then on all apostles or leaders had to be Jewish? There were no American apostles or Canadian apostles, did that mean that Jesus would never later call American or Canadian ministers to serve him? The twelve were selected in a specific time period and to have a woman apostle in the original twelve would have brought about persecution and accusations of immorality. Jesus never said anything that would exclude later female apostles in the group that Paul was a part of. After the twelve we see that there was at least one women, believed to be married, who was called to be an apostle—Junia. As early believers, she and her husband may well have been among the 120 disciples mentioned in Acts 1:15.
Pure philiosophical reasonong, not to mention the total eisegesis. Bauer's Lexicon states that it absolutely CANNOT be be known whether Junias was a man or woman. Curiously,the author above does not interact w/the fact that Junias is a 3rd declension Masculine noun, not feminine! This is because of his ignorance of the Greek.

Besides,why don't you paste his writings on the trinity doctrine??? Will you also believe him on that? Why not?
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  #1108  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:23 PM
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ForeverBlessed ForeverBlessed is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
Oh brother, I "judge" according to the plain declarations of Scripture. Besides, would you say that a practicing homosexual is saved? Watch it, you may be "judging"?????
I'm a woman, not a brother... and it isn't my place to judge someone's salvation. That is God's place... even with the homosexual. I have enough on my plate trying to keep Lisa straight without worrying whether someone is sinning or not.

If you don't believe that women should pastor or minister, then by all means, make sure you attend a church where that belief is upheld. I am not against you having that belief, just don't reach out and judge others for the work they are doing for God.

To me... questioning whether someone's fruit is of God is the same as saying they are lost...

In this case, it was a dear and precious lady who has done a lot of good things with her ministry in Brazil. It is not your place to judge, and when you have spent your life giving your all for another country, risking your life and such... you come back and I might listen to what you have to say.
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  #1109  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:07 PM
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Trouvere Trouvere is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

I am sure the Brother will be so satisfied if he convinces our dear beloved Missionary that she is not supposed to have gone to Brazil led by Jesus to preach the Gospel and start all those truth teaching churches. What a sad day indeed.
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  #1110  
Old 01-19-2010, 05:06 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed View Post
I'm a woman, not a brother... and it isn't my place to judge someone's salvation. That is God's place... even with the homosexual. I have enough on my plate trying to keep Lisa straight without worrying whether someone is sinning or not.

If you don't believe that women should pastor or minister, then by all means, make sure you attend a church where that belief is upheld. I am not against you having that belief, just don't reach out and judge others for the work they are doing for God.

To me... questioning whether someone's fruit is of God is the same as saying they are lost...

In this case, it was a dear and precious lady who has done a lot of good things with her ministry in Brazil. It is not your place to judge, and when you have spent your life giving your all for another country, risking your life and such... you come back and I might listen to what you have to say.
Geeee, imagine a woman arguing in favor of women preachers!?

I've repeatedly said that I highly honor Sis. Alvear for her sacrifices [besides, she began interacting w/ me], & sorry, I HAVE sacrificed for the church in home missions. We've gone w/out for the sake of the work of Christ, so ya' might wanna' do more homework before you start throwing eggs!

Besides, Mormons also sacrifice, are they also now saved based upon their sacrifices????? Your response about the homosexual is ridiculous & flies in the face of clear Scripture...just as does women preachers in the church ]I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34]. If we don't believe the Bible, then why are we even on here?
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