Can Women Pastor ?

[Sister Alvear]

I believe the callings and elections of God are sure...I know He called...

[Sister Alvear]

The Bible is a book we will all be judged by...I have staked my whole eternity on the fact He called me to be a missionary... I am very sorry we see things differently however I must obeyed HIM that called...I did not ask to be a missionary...the hard trials and doing without could have discouraged me and well intending friends inviting me to back home..but the inner call is there and I would never be happy outside the will of my lovelyLord...

I am sorry...it has never been my intention to make enemies however I stand by the fact HE called...and I see in His word permission to go into all the world and preach the gosple to every creature.

[Sister Alvear]

I am very glad that I had a sensitive pastor that listened to an 8 year old girl and in his great wisdom never discouraged me but never tried to push me out either..He was kind and understanding and let me come to Brazil when I was barely 18...He told my sweet mother, "soon we will know..."
They only seen a child going to a far off country...God saw on down the road....a wonderful husband, a wonderful family, hundreds of churches, thousands of redeemed...I saw nothing but uncertainity, a strange language, a foreign people, often no where to really feel at home...yet a fire burned with in me and I followed the unseen hand...

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Hmm. Interesting conclusion. The view I adhere to, comes from a direct read from the Bible without having to twist or make exceptions to the Word as written and it is somehow a "personal interpretation" Could it be possible, your sources view is of a "personal interpretation?" oh well, God is still good to all of us.

Put up or ____ __. You know the phrase - fill in the blanks. Unless you are willing to talk to the MALE leaders, which are many, that disagree with your interpretations of scripture, then don't waste my time.

Clearly, you aren't going to listen to a woman. So why not seriously talk to your brethren? If you truly believe its a heaven or hell issue, and if it really bothers you so much, seems to me you'd want to look into it more.

Its easier to sit behind a computer and debate and disrespect the women that you consider to be inferior to yourself.

Anytime you think you can stand being proven wrong, I will be happy to privately give you the name and phone number of just one of many male contacts. And no, hes not young, wet behind the ears and hen-pecked. Hes well into his 60's and been pastoring for years.

The disrespect on this thread by many toward Sis. Alvear is appalling. According to scripture, its out of line.

How about harping about some male topicsfor awhile? Starting with how a man is supposed to treat a woman, whether that be an elder woman, his own wife or other women in the church. The need in this area is far greater than the few women preachers/pastors currently in existance.

This post is to all the anti-women preacher/pastor males on this thread...not just the one I quoted.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

Put up or ____ __. You know the phrase - fill in the blanks. Unless you are willing to talk to the MALE leaders, which are many, that disagree with your interpretations of scripture, then don't waste my time.

Clearly, you aren't going to listen to a woman. So why not seriously talk to your brethren? If you truly believe its a heaven or hell issue, and if it really bothers you so much, seems to me you'd want to look into it more.

Its easier to sit behind a computer and debate and disrespect the women that you consider to be inferior to yourself.

Anytime you think you can stand being proven wrong, I will be happy to privately give you the name and phone number of just one of many male contacts. And no, hes not young, wet behind the ears and hen-pecked. Hes well into his 60's and been pastoring for years.

The disrespect on this thread by many toward Sis. Alvear is appalling. According to scripture, its out of line.

How about harping about some male topicsfor awhile? Starting with how a man is supposed to treat a woman, whether that be an elder woman, his own wife or other women in the church. The need in this area is far greater than the few women preachers/pastors currently in existance.

This post is to all the anti-women preacher/pastor males on this thread...not just the one I quoted.

Need I say more?
I am none of what you claimed, you know nothing about me.
You draw an awful lot of conclusions in your emotional post here. Sorry to have offended you. If I disrespect my dear sister, I apologize. Disagreeing is not disrespecting.
If you want to talk man issues, start a thread. The title of this thread is what is being addressed.
I have been proven wrong many times, however, the Bible is never wrong. You are making the same assumptions I am on our particular view on this subject.
Who said it was a heaven or hell issue? Relax.
For the record, those I minister to get a balanced Biblical view on the distinctions between the roles of the male and the female, not only in the church, but in the home and in society. Much and even most of our ills today are due to the confusion at home with the fathers role being dinegrated to virtual non-existence in value, I will do my best to preserve the order God instituted for a balance of His created order.
It is not about superior vs. inferior, rather it is about the order and differences God made in us.
Like it or not, the male is by God given nature a provider/protector and woman is nurturer/care giver. It gets deeper than just can or should a woman preside over men, but the nature He put in is.
Unfortunately for women, the order of things is she is to be in submission to her own husband. That in and of itself is a curse to have to submit to such idiots, at times. But it is the Word of God. I know of women that will not do that becasuse they feel their husbands are idiots. Well, he is her idiot so you should submit to him and pray for your idiot.
Once again, did not mean to offend, but the Bible is quite clear on this subject at least when it was written.
Lord Bless.

[Sandy]

Amen Lady Rev,

What I was doing mostly here, was considering, the proof is really in the pudding when all is said and done after all isn't it? If Sister Alvear was not called of God to do what she is doing, then why is she so absolutely successful at doing it in the first place? As she has been. All anyone has to do is check out what she and her husband has done as that missionary to see this be true. As while I don't know her personally. I have been reading her for a long time on the Cafe. And know she is totally a woman pleasing to God. One that is definitely not out of his will for sure.

And then began wondering, just what exactly the men that are trampling on her pearls have done themselves. Not that they haven't done anything either. I don't know. But she and many others know what she has done so far. And therefore, like I said, the proof is in the pudding after all isn't it.

So what I have been doing since my last post on this, is reading what she has to say, and copying what she has taught me on this issue instead.

But you have an excellent idea about them possibly talking to someone that might just know the truth after all, that is a man having been in the ministry for years instead, if they really want to look at the issue, and not argue about it. Even though I also believe, it be true, what she has done proves she was called of God to do it. Because God would not bless it like He has if she wasn't.

I think maybe what I am saying here about this issue concerning her testimony proving she was anointed to do exactly what she has done because of what it says in Rev. 12: 11 if one can see it.

[Sister Alvear]

dear ones...all is well...the fruits on our trees speak for us...

[Sister Alvear]

For many years many thought Junia(s) was a man--or if they admitted she was a woman, they discounted her as just someone highly regarded by the apostles. Recent scholarship proves she was both a female and an apostle! But let's start by looking at each piece of this scripture puzzle.

Romans 16:7
"Greet Andronicus and Junias (Junia) my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." NIV (The NAS and NASU both use "outstanding", the KJV uses "of note" meaning notable.)

English
Greek
Strongs Greet
aspasasthe
782 1.Andronicus
Andronikon
408 and
kai
2532
2.Junia
Iounian
2458 (the)
tous
3588 3.relatives
sungeneis
4773
my
mou
3450 and
kai
2532 4.fellow prisoners
sunaichmalootous
4869 my
mou
3450
who
hoitines
3748 are
eisin
1526 5.outstanding
episeemoi
1978 6.among
en
1722
the
tois
3588 7.apostles
apostolois
652 who
hoi
3739 also
kai
2532
8.before
pro
4253 me
emou
1700 were
gegonan
1096
in
en
1722 Christ
Christoo
5547

Andronicus means "man of victory".
Iounias-Junia , a common Latin female name meaning "youthful", a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners, Thayer's Greek Definitions. Also see the following pages for more proof.
relatives - Could mean related by blood, of the same race, or of the tribe of Benjamin.
fellow prisoners - They had once all three been imprisoned together, most likely for being Christian leaders. Paul would have gotten to know both of them very well.
outstanding - Episemos ep-is'-ay-mos - remarkable, eminent Strong's Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.
among - En, translated "among" 97 other times in the NT, in Matthew 20:26 "to be great among you" uses the same word. Expresses the idea of being within a group.
apostles - These were not of the 12, but apostle (meaning one who is sent) remained a spiritual gift, 1 Cor 12:28, and we have biblical proof that others became known as apostles as they received this spiritual gift or calling. Paul and Barnabas were apostles, Col.1:1, Acts 14:3,4.; also Silvanas and Timothy, read both 1 Thes 1:1, and 2:6.
before -These two were "in Christ" before Paul, meaning baptized before Paul was, and thus preceded him as Christians. Andronicus and Junia had more experience than Paul!

Was Junia "among" as "one of" the apostles, or just highly regarded by the apostles?

Many mentally read this scripture and add several of their own words—"They are (said to be) outstanding among (here they substitute "by") the apostles." Changing "among" and adding the other four words totally changes the meaning of this scripture! However, these four words—said to be/by—are not in the Greek text. In studying scriptures we cannot just randomly add words or change the words that are there! For the meaning "by" Paul would have used one of two totally different Greek words—para or pros—rather than using en which implies selection from within a group.1

Paul never relied on the opinions of other apostles to back his teaching or his praise.2 He knew these two very well, having been in prison with them. Why would he be saying that others thought they were outstanding? He knew them best and he was praising them as "outstanding (or eminent) among the apostles." Paul considered them apostles just as he considered himself to be an apostle. They were part of the group called apostles, they were apostles, and were setting an outstanding example.

The Wycliffe Bible Commentary states, "Paul describes them as being prominent among the apostles, and as having been Christians before him."

The United Bible Societies Handbook Series, an acknowledged authority composed of a board of respected translators, first acknowledges that they are a male/female team, "Adronicus and Junias ... could easily have been husband and wife, or brother and sister." They acknowledge that some misunderstood the sentence, "to mean 'the apostles know them well,' but a far more acceptable interpretation would imply that these...were counted as apostles and were well known, for example, 'as apostles they are well known.'"3


Why wasn't a woman among the original twelve apostles of Jesus?

A woman might well have been killed because of the moral outrage in that day and time against a woman being one of the disciples. Traveling around together in the three and one-half year training period demanded maleness of the core group of disciples. The women who did travel with them were not formally called disciples and thus could be accepted by that culture.

Remember, all of the twelve apostles were Jewish males. Did that mean that from then on all apostles or leaders had to be Jewish? There were no American apostles or Canadian apostles, did that mean that Jesus would never later call American or Canadian ministers to serve him? The twelve were selected in a specific time period and to have a woman apostle in the original twelve would have brought about persecution and accusations of immorality. Jesus never said anything that would exclude later female apostles in the group that Paul was a part of. After the twelve we see that there was at least one women, believed to be married, who was called to be an apostle—Junia. As early believers, she and her husband may well have been among the 120 disciples mentioned in Acts 1:15.

[Sister Alvear]

Is there proof that the term "apostle" continued beyond the Twelve?

See number seven on the chart for scriptures proving that others were called apostles in addition to the original twelve and Mathias. Men such as Paul, Barnabas, Silvanus and Timothy were all later apostles. Also see Thayer's. 4

We also find other scriptural proof that there were many that were called apostles in the New Testament beyond the twelve. 2 Cor. 8:22-24 is translated "messengers of the churches" but it is the same Greek word, apostolos, Strong's 652, and could be translated as "apostles of the churches"! In Phil 2:25 Epaphroditus is also called an apostolon or apostle, but once again it was translated "your messenger" rather than apostle.


Do early commentators record that Junia was a female apostle?

Dr. Leonard Swidler states, "To the best of my knowledge, no commentator on the Text until Aegidus of Rome (1245-1316) took the name to be masculine."5 So until the late 13th century, historical references all agreed that Junia was female, as did the men below.

Origen, of Alexandria who lived toward the end of the second century (c. 185-253).

See Epistolam ad Romanos Commentariorum 10, 23; 29.

John Chrysostrom, 4th century, (337-497) wrote, "Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle! (Homily on the Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans XXXI).

Jerome (340-419) wrote that Junia was a female. (Liver Interpretationis Hebraicorum Nominum 72, 15.) Also Hatto of Vercelli (924-961), Theophylack (1050-1108), and Peter Abelard (1079-1142) 6


How did Junia become known as a male?

The change took place in approximately 1298 which was during the reign of Pope Boniface VIII (Benedict Gaetani, reigned from 1294-1303). You will remember that the first person to record the two as "men" was Aegidus in Rome, a contemporary of Pope Boniface VIII. The Catholic Encyclopedia goes on to tell us that this pope was accused of infidelity, heresy, simony, gross and unnatural immorality, adultery, magic, loss of the Holy Land, death of Celestine V, and more. When King Philip IV of France brought these charges against him five archbishops, 21 bishops and some abbots sided with the king! 7 This evil man had persuaded the pope before him, Celestine V, to resign, and then following his own election as pope, imprisoned the elderly man until his death. 8

One famous quote from Boniface VIII is, "It is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff."9

A papal decision that dealt directly with religious women was the papal bull known as Periculoso, which was the first word of the Latin text. This decree of 1298 announced that all nuns, no matter their rank, or what rule they observed and no matter where their monasteries were located—all nuns were to be perpetually cloistered! Unless a nun became contagiously ill, she could not leave her monastery or invite "unauthorized persons" into the monastery.10 Once they had been free to come and go on their own religious business and ministries, now nuns were to be totally separated and no longer free to come and go as they wished. This was a milestone decision and transformed monasteries into virtual prisons! One order of nuns threw the bishop delivering this decree out of their convent and tossed the edict along after him! One reason given for this decree was for their safety, but soon afterwards many safe monasteries out in the country were closed and relocated to cities, so this reason did not really seem valid. Boniface may well have wished to limit the power and influence of the women of the church. Many nuns protested but the edict remained and continues to this day. Nuns never regained the freedom they had before the edict of 1298.

Monasteries of women were famous for producing their own copyists and illuminators of manuscripts.11 Therefore these nun bible copyists and educated nuns among them such as Gertrude the Great (1256-1302) who wrote Herald of Divine Love, would have been able to cite Junia as an apostle from the biblical record of Romans. Did Boniface VIII also rule that Junia would henceforth be considered a male? Conclusive evidence eludes us, but we do know that at about the same time as this edict against nuns, medieval biblical commentators began referring to Junia as a male! The first person Dr. Swidler sites to do so is Aeigidus of Rome. If this is the same man as AEgidius Colonna, the Archbishop of Bourges who helped Boniface write one of his major papal bulls—then we have a direct link to Boniface VIII.12 Another shocking change occurred at about this same time.

[Sister Alvear]

"Junia" becomes "Junias"

"Without exception the church fathers in late antiquity identified Andronicus' partner in Romans 16:7 as a woman as did minuscule 33 in the 9th century which records Iounia (Greek for Junia) with an acute accent. Only later medieval copyists of Romans 17:7 could not imagine a woman being an apostle and wrote the masculine name Iounias (Junias) with an s. This later name Junias did not exist in antiquity; its explanation as a Greek abbreviation of the Latin name 'Junianus' is unlikely."13

At about the time of Pope Boniface's edict removing the freedom of nuns in 1298, copyists began writing the name Junia as Junias! Yet recent research has shown that the newly created name, Junias, didn't even exist at the time of Paul!

"This hypothetical name Junias is, however, as yet unattested in ancient inscriptions, but the female Latin name Junia occurs over 250 times among inscriptions from ancient Rome alone. Further, the ancient translations and the earliest manuscripts with accents support reading Iounian as Junia. Finally, Junias would be an irregular form. Therefore, critical scholars today increasingly interpret the name as the feminine Junia."14

Junia was a very common Latin female name and we have no record of any Roman male bearing the name Junia. But medieval copyists began copying the name with as "s" to hide Junia's sex, not knowing that the name Junias "did not exist in antiquity"! So Junia received a fictitious name, possibly at the command of Pope Boniface VIII!


Apostle is listed as one of the Spiritual gifts given by God.

God Himself gives the ability to do these jobs,"And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues." 1 Corinthians 12:28, NIV

Apostle is listed first by Paul as one of the most important of the spiritual gifts because these individuals are responsible for evangelizing, setting up churches, organizing them, handling the problems that arose, ordaining elders for each church and generally coordinating, supervising and serving a number of congregations. Again, it is God that gives these individuals the ability—as a spiritual gift—to do a certain job. Ordination was usually done long after the person was already getting the job done through the leading of God's Holy Spirit. You will notice that Stephen was performing miracles and preaching even though his ordination had been to deacon, see Acts 6:1-10.

Since Junia was given this highest spiritual gift along with her husband Andronicus, it is obvious that women can also be given the calling (spiritual gift) of serving God as a prophet, teacher, or any of the other spiritual gifts. In the scriptures that explain spiritual gifts there is no indication that any gift is limited to males only. Both men and women are to work together using whatever talents, abilities and spiritual gifts they have been given by God to serve, in a servant manner, the people of God.


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(copied from the church of God )