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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other. |
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11-19-2009, 01:42 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
The history of women in the Church has been paradoxical and a test of fellowship among some circles. I believe that makes Jesus weep.
It is obvious that if we take Deborah out of the Bible, Israel remains in bondage, if we take out Ester, Israel is killed, if we take out Huldah, Israel remains without someone to interpret the scroll. If we take out Mary we remain without a Savior, if we take out the women at the tomb no one knows He has risen. So at many key times God in his wisdom chooses to use women. Why? I just really don’t know. Maybe it is because of his sense of humor. Does not his own word say his ways are past finding out? On so many occasions when man has thought they have figured God out He shows up and does exactly opposite to our human thinking.
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11-19-2009, 01:45 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
1 Corinthians 14 describes what a service was like among the first Christians.
“Everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation." (NIV, 1 Cor 14:26)
“Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. (Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.” (NIV, 1 Cor 14:1-5)
sorry for NIV I don´t have King James close by at this moment...) (I am not at my house)
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11-19-2009, 01:46 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
I never really “heard the voice of the Lord” call me to go “preach”, but He did call me to be a missionary. One day I heard him call my name. He told me to go to the people of Brazil. What could the word “missionary” mean? The meaning of “missionary” has various meanings to various people. One dictionary says it is a group of envoys (representatives or messengers) to a foreign country.
Well for me, it has meant going into the cities, the villages, the jungles, and telling a pagan people about the life-changing story of Jesus Christ. It has meant being challenged by witch doctors and priests, being threatened by bandits, standing before cannibal Indians, working in a leper colony as well as speaking in public schools and universities of Brazil.
It meant going into places where male preachers had never been yet some may condemn me for being willing to go. I had to wade across alligator-infested streams just to reach and baptize new converts. Being a missionary meant mixing mortar and laying bricks to build new churches. It meant performing weddings, burying the dead, and sometimes delivering babies.
It meant teaching new converts and preparing people for the ministry. It meant seeing a work be born and grow into maturity. It meant hours of radio programs. It meant long nights without sleep, traveling in the back lands, drinking contaminated water and eating all kinds of so called foods (some of which were indescribable). It meant sharing rooms with bats, rats, and all sorts of animals that crawled and flew at night.
It meant sitting in the conventions in the homeland and listening to men who made cutting remarks about women in the ministry. It meant being willing to go against the tide and obey a call that is stronger than meager earthly ties. It meant being different from the ordinary. It meant loving souls, no matter the circumstances. It meant taking in abandoned children or children whose mother was murdered, adopting them and loving them like my own. It meant traveling down the lonely road of not knowing where the next meal would come from, nor the money to pay for the food should it come our way.
Perhaps most prophets and prophetesses in the Bible had to travel down lonely roads themselves to obey God yet they could not understand why at that moment. I, too, am at a loss for words to describe the desolate anguish I had experienced at times. Equally difficult to explain is the call of God so strong in my heart. Maybe it’s all part of being a missionary. How can you describe a feeling to deep for words, a call to sacred to play with? This burden is so heavy that it never disappears. Maybe we could compare it with Jack London’s call of the wild.
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11-19-2009, 01:47 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
While the church leaders agree all must hear and obey to be saved, the clergy fuss about who tells the story. What difference does it make which gender pulls a burning person from the flame? Or what difference does it make that a man or woman, male or female, saves the drowning persons from a torrid river? Did the horrified soldiers care who answered the call that icy March afternoon in 1869 when Ida Lewis responded with haste to rescue the crying voices from the choppy waves at Lime Rock Lighthouse in Newport. One of the drowning men lost hope when he saw that it was a woman who came rowing out to save them. However, he was soon to change his mind after the job was successfully accomplished. She had fierce strength that wasn’t hers alone. Later, a newspaper recorded that she said that the Lord Almighty gave it to her when she needed it the most. (Women of the Lights, Candice Fleming, Albert Whitman & Co., Morton Grove, IL, 1996, 21.) Women can save lives just as men can.
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11-19-2009, 01:49 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
I am painfully aware that religious activities in Greco-Roman paganism included cult prostitution and shriek cries described as wild outcries. The Corinthian female dominated religious thought and practice. From the mother goddess Artemis to the women serving their time as sacred temple prostitutes and speaking messages from the gods, the male of Corinth was deeply dependent upon the female. Yet this has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ but sadly it has influenced the thinking of many people. Yet men like John of Chrysostom (who was no champion of women) called Priscilla a “teacher of teachers.”
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11-19-2009, 01:52 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
I think of something I read in Foxes book of Martyrs about The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67.
“This persecution was general throughout the whole Roman Empire; but it rather increased than diminished the spirit of Christianity.” Studying history of severely persecuted people and countries we find that any Christian witness either man or woman was received well among other Christians. Isn’t it strange how persecution unites people? Another part of Foxes book of Martyrs says ,
"a noble army, men and boys, the matron and the maid," "climbed the steep ascent of heaven, 'mid peril, toil, and pain." The reason they were dying for their faith was the simple fact they were witness of Him who died to set all free. Let me quietly mention a few that signed their calls in their own blood.
The Fifth Persecution, Commencing With Severus, A.D. 192
Perpetua, a married lady, of about twenty-two years. Those who suffered with her were, Felicitas, a married lady, big with child at the time of her being apprehended, and Revocatus, catechumen of Carthage, and a slave. The names of the other prisoners, destined to suffer upon this occasion, were Saturninus, Secundulus, and Satur. On the day appointed for their execution, they were led to the amphitheater. Satur, Saturninus, and Revocatus were ordered to run the gauntlet between the hunters, or such as had the care of the wild beasts. The hunters being drawn up in two ranks, they ran between, and were severely lashed as they passed. Felicitas and Perpetua were stripped, in order to be thrown to a mad bull, which made his first attack upon Perpetua, and stunned her; he then darted at Felicitas, and gored her dreadfully; but not killing them, the executioner did that office with a sword. Revocatus and Satur were destroyed by wild beasts; Saturninus was beheaded; and Secundulus died in prison. These executions were in the 205, on the eighth day of March.
Cecilia, a young lady of good family in Rome, was married to a gentleman named Valerian. She converted her husband and brother, who were beheaded; and the maximus, or officer, who led them to execution, becoming their convert, suffered the same fate. The lady was placed naked in a scalding bath, and having continued there a considerable time, her head was struck off with a sword, A.D. 222
The Eighth Persecution, Under Valerian, A.D. 257
Maxima, Donatilla, and Secunda, three virgins of Tuburga, had gall and vinegar given them to drink, were then severely scourged, tormented on a gibbet, rubbed with lime, scorched on a gridiron, worried by wild beasts, and at length beheaded.
(from Fox's Book of Martyrs)
I just don’t think they were arguing among themselves who could and who couldn’t die for the gospel neither arguing who could speak up for Christ and who could not speak up for Christ.
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If it is for one of our direct needs please mark it on the check.
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11-19-2009, 01:54 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
D
own through the eons and ages there has been a special warfare that has been focused on woman. We see her in her beginning in Gen. 2:23 she was called Isha because she was taken out of man. In Gen. 3:20 her husband called her Eve, the mother of all living or life giver. From the point of her beginning to this point woman was no longer taken out of man but man was born of woman. Eve, the wife of the first man Adam along with him failed the test. But we can see a spiritual order of things in the natural order of things. What was lost in the first man Adam was regained in the second man Adam. It has been well said that man was made in the image of God and failed miserably but in the fullness of time God was made in the likeness of man and triumphed gloriously. As he hung suspended on the tree and in his suffering he said, “It is finished.” He gave up the ghost. Jesus often referred to death as sleep. In his sleep, in his death when the Roman soldier punctured his side with a spear and blood and water gushed out. Out of his side came a woman, a lady, a bride, and a wife. Out of his side came a church, the lady of ladies. What an awesome responsibility that was given to the woman. (church).
In I Thess. 5:5-8 Paul speaks about the Breastplate of faith and helmet of hope. These are articles used to dress out and fit a person for war.
When some think of a lady they think of sewing clubs, bridge parties, and cooks. Although these things may go along with the feminine side Paul said we are called to fight. In the sense of warfare there is no room for the powdered, pampered, weak and dainty. There are no room for tea parties and fashion shows.
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Monies to help us may be sent to P.O. Box 797, Jonesville, La 71343.
If it is for one of our direct needs please mark it on the check.
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11-19-2009, 01:56 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
We find ourselves engaged in war. Just as Deborah had no time to waste on those that were not willing to come to the aid of the Lord neither do I waste my time and talents arguing over who may go to war. From the earliest documents of church history we find noble men and women working together for a common cause. I am sure noble women know how to conduct themselves around men for noble women respect men.
The most important task of the church is reaching out to the lost. His last testament last words before returning to heaven were, “go into all the world… teach all nations… pray that laborers would be sent into the harvest…´ Last words are reserved for the most important things. Soul winning was one of the most important task He gave to the church.
__________________
Monies to help us may be sent to P.O. Box 797, Jonesville, La 71343.
If it is for one of our direct needs please mark it on the check.
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11-19-2009, 02:01 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
Soul winning is so important to me that at barely 18 I left all to follow...Over 41 years ago...
__________________
Monies to help us may be sent to P.O. Box 797, Jonesville, La 71343.
If it is for one of our direct needs please mark it on the check.
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11-19-2009, 02:01 PM
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Sister Alvear
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
A group of Branhamite people told me recently that they thought 1Corinthians 14:34 meant a woman couldn’t preach. In Brazil, (I don’t know about in the States) they believe in speaking in tongues, singing, and much more. I asked them if their women received the Holy Ghost. Their answer was yes. I asked them how could they receive the Holy Ghost in silence? Well, of course they didn’t know that answer. Neither do they know a lot other answers to what I classify as a doctrine invented in hell.
Perversion of a woman’s role was surely schemed up by the devil himself. In one of the Branham's books, I read the words that the woman was made to be low, dirty, and vile (Portuguese). Men were to be like one rooster in the chicken pen or one bull among the many cows.
One false doctrine leads to another one. Just as they have no proof that I Corinthians 14:34 means that a woman can’t preach, neither have they any proof or grounds for the serpent seed doctrine.
Tears fill my eyes to see the homes that have split up because of their rib message.
Jeremiah 9:17: "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, consider ye and call for the mourning women, that they come and send for cunning women that they come, and let them make haste, and take up a wailing for us."
Since cunning may be translated "wise" in Hebrew, we understand that Jehovah called upon the wise women to show interest and concern in matters of State (Huldah, II Kings 22:14).
__________________
Monies to help us may be sent to P.O. Box 797, Jonesville, La 71343.
If it is for one of our direct needs please mark it on the check.
Facebook Janice LaVaun Taylor Alvear
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