Do you reeeeeeally believe that you simply dismiss God-Breathed Scripture as merely "relevant to Paul's day"?????? Will you do the same w/ Paul's teachings about faith? So, now the ministry is not an office? Ever read I Tim. 3:1-7? Silly.
Not real sure what you mean by the "church sitting" Sis. Alvear. I presume that you're evoking the ol' "women sat on one side & men on the other" argument. Even if that were so [& it's virtually non-existent in 1st century church records], I really do not see how this would affect I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34, etc. These [& other] Scriptures still stand as a positive witness against the idea of women preachers in the church.
Still waiting on someone [ANYONE] to exegetically [to draw the original meaning out of the text thru grammar/context], instead of eisegesically [to insert meaning into the text thru pre-conceived notions], deal w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34, I Tim. 3:1-7, etc.
Well, this is definitely the last time that I can post for a while...so have at it! Blessings.......
O' yea, it's ASTOUNDING how you can accuse ME of "rejecting the commandments of God, that ye may hold your own tradition," then YOU relegate the great apostle Paul's teachings to "only relevant to his day"?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
Can females be used in the office of a Christian pastor and in Eldership roles ?
Yes or No ? What say ye ?
Yes Women can pastor. We will know as we are known, They don't mary
nor are given to be maried but are as the angels in heaven.
In the spirirt there are no genders. We are all created in the image of God, a new species of being. Mans traditions and culture have created this mindset.
Prysila and Aquila had a church in their home they both were pastors they both
expounded the word more perfectly to Paul. This mindset is a distraction from
waitier matters. Such as becoming more like Christ and walking in the nature of Jesus. Most of Jesus followers were women. Jesus appeard to woman first.
He sent word to the men (about the most important day in history)through a woman. Therefore Jesus Himself used a woman to get The Word out.
There is more on this subject but I don't want to ramble.
I see your still having trouble responding to I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14, etc. ad nauseum. "Succourer" simply defines in Strong's as a "patroness" [one who protects, as Rahab did]...not a "preacher." Where do you get this definition from the actual text? And what translation adopts such a rendering?????? Is every one who "protects" someone now a "Preacher"??????? Silly. Have you ever heard of "Intellectual Dishonesy"?
I posted the definition from Vines, which states that she was set over people, not just women. Your position is that a woman preacher can't preach to men because she would be in authority over them, and that's a bad thing, right? But the definition was posted by me already. I'm not doing it again when you can go back and look at it.
Phoebe was set over others by Paul. Paul instructed MEN to obey her (perhaps because men like yourself were present).
Show me the link where 'succourer' is a 'patroness' or 'protector'. The Vines says no such thing, not even close. Paul said she was a succourer of many, including himself. Why would Paul need her to protect him, as you claim the definition to be??
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Anna: Where does the Scriptures say that she expounded from Scripture in church-setting [which did not even exist then]? You are supplying that interpretation...not the literal text! In sum, you bring your pre-suppositions to the text, & read your assumptions into it. Problem is, it's NEVER stated by the text itself!
Now you are stretching scripture to meet your definitions.
Anna was a prophetess who lived in the temple (modern day church in her time).
But since you are wanting scripture, how about providing your own.
Show me where women can preach as long as it's not in a church setting (which you imply above in the bold).
And yes, scripture was provided in the case with Anna. I'm not surprised you missed it.
Anna preached Jesus to those looking for redemption. Scripture plainly says that (although it doesn't use the word 'preach', but that's what she was doing, whether you like it or not. Truth is, if Zachariah were mentioned as doing what she did, you would agree he was preaching.).
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"Fallacy of Assumption"...........Heavenlyone.....
1st, it's not "my position," it was the great Apostle Paul's [under inspiration of the Holy Spirit] who forbid women to operate in authority over men in a church setting. "These things write I unto you that thou mayest know how you ought to BEHAVE thyself in the HOUSE OF GOD, which IS THE CHURCH....." Can you not read???
If you refuse to deal w/ I Tim. 2, I Cor. 14, etc. ad nauseum [which you apparently CANNOT deal w/], then do not expect me to continue to explain your silly "objections". Pls. provide us the translation that renders "Succourer" as being "set over men":_____________? And pls. provide the verse stating that Phoebe was a "minster of the Word" over men:________________? Seems to be an awful lot of blanks that you cannot fill in! Funny how you conveniently overlooked Strong's definition: "patroness, ASSISTANT." Do you understand the term "assistant"? Vine's also affirms these meanings, which you conveniently omitted [dishonesty].
You say, "Anna preached." Say what??? What passage says this:____________? So, now everyone who "speaks about redemption" is automatically a "minister of the Word"??????? Sheeesh, talk about theological hula-hoops! Besides, Anna was not under the authority of the Ecclesiastical writings of Paul in I Tim 2, 3, etc. Not that it matters since nothing is stated about her expounding from the Scriptures to men...no matter how you try to force this into the text.
Fact: You, nor anyone else can provide one, single Biblical passage affirming your position, "whether you like it or not." It's all speculation into passages that never state the same. Yet, I have several plainly written verses clearly forbidding women "preachers" in the church...which you refuse to deal w/.
Should women witness about Jesus & redemption [which is all the actual text affirms that Anna was doing]? Absolutely! Should women excercise positions of leadership in the church, taking their "liberty" w/ the AUTHORITATIVE Word of God? According to the Scriptures [that they ironically would be taking a text from, hmmmm],..... absolutely not! Awww, I'll just leave the Masculine gender of the Greek word for "Elder" alone for now!
Until you can deal w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34, I Tim. 3:1-7 [for starters]...I'm not intersted in "dialoguing" [or should I say, "monologuing" w/ you]. You, my friend, are a product of the "Feminists-Liberation" rebellion.......
Sooooooooo much more to say on this matter, but I absolutely have to go now. Just had one last moment to look at this before leaving for out of state for a week.
Re: "Fallacy of Assumption"...........Heavenlyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp
1st, it's not "my position," it was the great Apostle Paul's [under inspiration of the Holy Spirit] who forbid women to operate in authority over men in a church setting. "These things write I unto you that thou mayest know how you ought to BEHAVE thyself in the HOUSE OF GOD, which IS THE CHURCH....." Can you not read???
Of course I can, but you seem to miss a few things. Phoebe was a deaconess, which is a female deacon with the same purpose and job description, but I bet you don't believe women should be deacons, do you?
In addition, you implied above that Anna wasn't in a church setting, yet she was in the house of God. I wonder what Paul would have said to her, speaking to those men and women about Jesus like she was doing. Shame on her, huh?
Quote:
If you refuse to deal w/ I Tim. 2, I Cor. 14, etc. ad nauseum [which you apparently CANNOT deal w/], then do not expect me to continue to explain your silly "objections". Pls. provide us the translation that renders "Succourer" as being "set over men":_____________? And pls. provide the verse stating that Phoebe was a "minster of the Word" over men:________________? Seems to be an awful lot of blanks that you cannot fill in! Funny how you conveniently overlooked Strong's definition: "patroness, ASSISTANT." Do you understand the term "assistant"? Vine's also affirms these meanings, which you conveniently omitted [dishonesty].
I never said that Phoebe was a minister of the Word over anyone, let alone men. I already gave you the definition that said she was 'set over others'. In addition, Paul instructed MEN to obey her. Want the scripture? Here it is:
Quote:
Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
And once again, here's the definition FROM THE VINES that I posted before in it's entirety, and the link that proves it. I omitted nothing (incorrect accusation from you above), yet you provide no link as to your information.
1. a woman set over others
2. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources
In verse 2, we see that Paul sends her to assist a church, but instructs the men to mind her. She was set over them (regardless of what capacity, but she's the only person in the Bible mentioned as a succourer, so the entire definition applies to her), in spite of your insistence that she wasn't.
Quote:
You say, "Anna preached." Say what??? What passage says this:____________? So, now everyone who "speaks about redemption" is automatically a "minister of the Word"??????? Sheeesh, talk about theological hula-hoops! Besides, Anna was not under the authority of the Ecclesiastical writings of Paul in I Tim 2, 3, etc. Not that it matters since nothing is stated about her expounding from the Scriptures to men...no matter how you try to force this into the text.
Again, since when is expounding from the scriptures defined as preaching? Show me the definition that says what you claim. And I didn't say Anna was speaking about redemption, she was speaking about Jesus to those who sought redemption. How could she expound on the scriptures about Jesus when none existed except as prophecy??? He was there, and no longer a prophetic issue!!
But hey, let's say that expounding from the scriptures IS preaching. You just proved women preachers in the Bible, because Priscilla, together with her husband, expounded scriptures to Apollos!
And who says Paul has authority about anything? Paul had a lot of 'I forbids' and 'I rathers', but does that make it so for God? If women speaking in church was wrong for God, He wouldn't have waited for Paul to say it decades after Anna was in the temple. In fact, God wouldn't have put Anna in the temple to begin with!
Quote:
Fact: You, nor anyone else can provide one, single Biblical passage affirming your position, "whether you like it or not." It's all speculation into passages that never state the same. Yet, I have several plainly written verses clearly forbidding women "preachers" in the church...which you refuse to deal w/.
You have a verse that says 'women preachers are forbidden in the church'?? For real? That's not in my KJV either. In addition, while you imply that women preachers are ok outside of church, my KJV doesn't say that either.
You sound like the preachers who say the Bible preaches against jewelry, but they allow wedding rings and watches when the Bible makes no such exclusion (if it indeed spoke against jewelry). They really just want to justify what they believe even if they have no scripture to prove their exclusion.
Quote:
Should women witness about Jesus & redemption [which is all the actual text affirms that Anna was doing]? Absolutely! Should women excercise positions of leadership in the church, taking their "liberty" w/ the AUTHORITATIVE Word of God? According to the Scriptures [that they ironically would be taking a text from, hmmmm],..... absolutely not! Awww, I'll just leave the Masculine gender of the Greek word for "Elder" alone for now!
Tell me, in your opinion, what is the difference in preaching about Jesus and witnessing about Him using the same words? I mean, I can tell someone about the death, burial and resurrection to someone in their house for an hour, and you can say the exact same thing behind a pulpit. How are your words 'preaching' and mine simply 'witnessing'? What is the defining line?
BTW, the office of a bishop is feminine gender of the Greek. You really want to go there?
Quote:
Until you can deal w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, I Cor. 14:34, I Tim. 3:1-7 [for starters]...I'm not intersted in "dialoguing" [or should I say, "monologuing" w/ you]. You, my friend, are a product of the "Feminists-Liberation" rebellion.......
Sooooooooo much more to say on this matter, but I absolutely have to go now. Just had one last moment to look at this before leaving for out of state for a week.
And you, running out of intelligent statements, resort to a low-blow insult as you run out the door. Forgive me if I don't believe you are my friend.
That being said, and the fact that I spent a lot of time on this post, don't bother replying, as I don't discuss any issue with people who resort to insults while calling me a friend. I'll leave this post for someone else who disagrees with me but can discuss it in an adult manner.
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In Romans 16:1 Paul says, "I commend unto you Phoebe, our sister which is a servant of the Church which is at Cenchrea.
Commend: Strongs Concordance Def...
, , ..sunistao ..sunistano ..sunistemi soon-is-tah'-o, soon-is-tah'-an'-o, soon-is-tah'-ay-mee From G4862 and G2476 (including its collateral forms); to set together, that is, (by implication) to introduce (favorably), or (figuratively) to exhibit; intransitively to stand near, or (figuratively) to constitute: - approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with).
Servant: Strongs Concordance Def...
diakonos dee-ak'-on-os an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.
Church: Strongs Concordance Def.
ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
H1.....Below is something I stumbled upon in my readings a while back. I thought that you might find it interesting?
The Greek word here translated "servant" occurs twenty times in Paul's epistles and sixteen times it is translated "minister" three times it is translated "deacon" and only once throughout Paul's writing is it translated "servant" and that is when it is used in reference to Phoebe.
Why did not our translators render this passage Phoebe our sister who is a "minister" of the Church that is at Cenchrea? The very same word is translated "minister" in Ephesians 3:7. "Paul was made a minister"--also in Colossians I:7 and of Epaphras that he was, "a beloved brother and faithful minister,"--and in Colossians 4:7 of Tychicus our dear fellow servant who is a faithful "minister" of Christ...
Women are servants to this blessed day in lands where the gospel of Christ is not preached, and in our authorized version translators were in sympathy with the heathen when the ministry of women was at issue.
Instead of Phoebe being a "servant" of the Church at Cenchrea, as our translators would have us believe, she was a "minister" of the Church.
And she received her appointment from the hands of Paul himself. Her visit to Rome was on church "business," and Paul demanded that the church assist her in whatsoever business she might undertake.
Who ever heard of an old "servant woman" being sent on business to the church abroad, by such a man as Paul. And if she had been a "servant" sent to scrub and clean up, I guess he would not have written a long letter of recommendation and commanded the church at large to "get busy" and help her do it. The very idea is extremely absurd.
We do not send our servants to attend to our church business at General Assemblies or General Conference, and send word to the church to see to it that they help them.
O, no, that is not the work of servants, but it is the work of the church's representatives, persons of intellect, upon whose good judgment we can rely. Phoebe was a "minister" of the church at Cenchrea and not by any means a servant.
In Pheobe's [sic] case Paul certainly forgot that he was opposed to the ministry of women. In the light of his conduct here, "Let your women keep silence" sounds out of harmony with his "I commend unto you our sister Pheobe [sic] who is a minister of the Church at Cenchrea,"
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In Romans 16:1 Paul says, "I commend unto you Phoebe, our sister which is a servant of the Church which is at Cenchrea.
Commend: Strongs Concordance Def...
, , ..sunistao ..sunistano ..sunistemi soon-is-tah'-o, soon-is-tah'-an'-o, soon-is-tah'-ay-mee From G4862 and G2476 (including its collateral forms); to set together, that is, (by implication) to introduce (favorably), or (figuratively) to exhibit; intransitively to stand near, or (figuratively) to constitute: - approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with).
Servant: Strongs Concordance Def...
diakonos dee-ak'-on-os an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.
Church: Strongs Concordance Def.
ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
H1.....Below is something I stumbled upon in my readings a while back. I thought that you might find it interesting?
The Greek word here translated "servant" occurs twenty times in Paul's epistles and sixteen times it is translated "minister" three times it is translated "deacon" and only once throughout Paul's writing is it translated "servant" and that is when it is used in reference to Phoebe.
Why did not our translators render this passage Phoebe our sister who is a "minister" of the Church that is at Cenchrea? The very same word is translated "minister" in Ephesians 3:7. "Paul was made a minister"--also in Colossians I:7 and of Epaphras that he was, "a beloved brother and faithful minister,"--and in Colossians 4:7 of Tychicus our dear fellow servant who is a faithful "minister" of Christ...
Women are servants to this blessed day in lands where the gospel of Christ is not preached, and in our authorized version translators were in sympathy with the heathen when the ministry of women was at issue.
Instead of Phoebe being a "servant" of the Church at Cenchrea, as our translators would have us believe, she was a "minister" of the Church.
And she received her appointment from the hands of Paul himself. Her visit to Rome was on church "business," and Paul demanded that the church assist her in whatsoever business she might undertake.
Who ever heard of an old "servant woman" being sent on business to the church abroad, by such a man as Paul. And if she had been a "servant" sent to scrub and clean up, I guess he would not have written a long letter of recommendation and commanded the church at large to "get busy" and help her do it. The very idea is extremely absurd.
We do not send our servants to attend to our church business at General Assemblies or General Conference, and send word to the church to see to it that they help them.
O, no, that is not the work of servants, but it is the work of the church's representatives, persons of intellect, upon whose good judgment we can rely. Phoebe was a "minister" of the church at Cenchrea and not by any means a servant.
In Pheobe's [sic] case Paul certainly forgot that he was opposed to the ministry of women. In the light of his conduct here, "Let your women keep silence" sounds out of harmony with his "I commend unto you our sister Pheobe [sic] who is a minister of the Church at Cenchrea,"
That is very interesting, and I've heard that same thing before. I don't care whether or not she was a minister or a servant, as I believe both to be the same thing. I minister to people all the time, both in the Word and as part of my job as a nurse. We are all ministers, and we are all called to serve.
It's just that some people believe that ministers (or preachers/pastors) should be people set on a pedestal and that their calling is much more important than the ministers we are all called to be. Don't get me wrong...I think pastors et al should be appreciated and such, but a good preacher/pastor doesn't want to be above 'the commoners'. They are servants, thus called to serve. To me, that's the highest calling we can all have..to be called to serve others.
I'm just not understanding why the big deal about women being preachers and expounding scripture. I have yet for any opposers to tell me how I'm exempt from obeying Matt 28:19, where we are called to 'go into all the world and preach'. Preaching doesn't require any special gift or calling....we are all commanded to do so.
Thanks for your insightful post. I will look more into that thought.
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Re: Can Women Pastor ?
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