Hello MissB, usually I like a lot of the things you write, but on your last post I have to disagree. You definitely had a point about saving seats, in your last post, saving seats is normal, and if I went to a church event with my sister and she had to step out quick, of course I'd save her seat, so that's not so off. However, concerning clothing, you seemed to have to justify yourself, a lot, by going into detail as to what you wear, what it costs, ect... ect... And I find it interesting that what Sis. Lisa wrote bothered you so much.
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Well, I was in bed, but I had to get back up to post...again. This thread has actually been bothering me all afternoon. I thought and thought about it, and considered whether or not I'm full of pride, or maybe I care too much about how I present myself or how my kids present themselves, and here's the answer: No.
Edward, I don't know if you started this thread seriously, or just to be funny, but either way--it's bothersome. Do you realize how obsessed some of you are acting about other people's appearances????? To the point of judging other folks' character, motives and hearts by their outward appearance? Isn't that precisely what we want to avoid?
Judging is NOT something we are trying to avoid, but is a tool we have for weighing things and considering matters. It is fairly difficult to judge someone's character by their looks, but if you were in the middle of a UPC convention, and someone went in dressed like a goth or heavy metal rocker, wouldn't you judge them, and think, "They must be new, or they must have taken a wrong turn"? Also, if someone is dressed in very expensive clothing and looks prideful, some could judge that person to be proud, judging is normal, and the world is certainly going to judge us, and we don't want to give them any ammunition, whereby to speak evil of us.
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
I am floored that anyone (Okay, LISA) would go to youth convention and spend even one second thinking negatively about the "fashion show." Go to the mall, for Pete's sake. The whole world is a fashion show, no matter whether it's casual or dressy--it's all just show. It's just appearance. Therefore--it's the least important to The Most Important.
This was the part that REALLY got me- whatever they do at the mall is of NO effect to us! The whole world may be a fashion show, but the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket, let it not be said of the church. Also, we do not know what is "least" important to the Most Important, so it is not best for us to think we know the mind of GOD.
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Originally Posted by MissBrattified
So my question is this: Would I be wrong to look at all those Other Mothers and think that they had something to be ashamed of for dressing casual and making me feel out of place at the basketball game? Is it THEIR fault if I feel awkward in a skirt on the bleachers? (Which I don't, btw.) Or if I suddenly have a hankerin' to run down to Old Navy and buy a pair of jeans that hug my hiney in all the right (or wrong) places, so I can fit in, and look just like them? (Which I also don't, btw.) Do I stand by the wall and quiver at the thought of speaking to those Other Mothers who look so casual, and here I am in my business casual, which is normal dress for me, except when I'm gardening? Do I need to dress like them so I can feel comfortable enough to cheer for my girls?
This is completely different, you are drawing an example from the world again. Neither of you need to change how your dressed here- you are in covenant with GOD, and dress as a sister should, in a skirt, they are out of covenant with GOD, and dress as women in our modern day culture should, in jeans. However, when we go to a church event, we are all members of the Body of Christ, we are all in covenant, and there should be some understanding as to how we should dress, since it is somewhat important, ESPECIALLY around the youth, where immodest dress can lead to temptation, and extravagant dress can more easily lead to insecurity in our young people. MissB, you are an adult, who has gone through the adolescent craziness, and you are "comfortable in your own skin", most adolescents are not there yet. That doesn't mean we need to cater to these insecure people, but we should be careful to not offend our weaker brethren, and to consider the weaker ones among us.
I won't go through the rest of your post, but I figured the beginning was a good place to start.
Some of you know my views on dress standards, clothing, jewelry, ect... Some of you take a "no-jewelry" position, which is fine, however, mention of gold is extracted from 1 Peter 3, and then the putting on of apparel is not taken into consideration by some people. What does this "putting on of apparel" mean? It does not mean to never wear clothes, but it speaks to a moderation we should take in our clothing. In 1 Timothy 2, Paul talks about expensive clothing, and yes, expensive means different things to different people, but let's just continue to think on this "putting on of apparel" and "expensive clothing"... All this attention is given to "No jewelry, No makeup! No sleeves to such and such length!" ect... And then after that, it's a free for all. [What seems to go on in the mind of some sisters] Ok, so I can't wear jewelry, and I've got to find something modest- I'll go where the girls from school get their prom dresses, and wear one of those, with something covering my arms for Youth Congress, oh, and I have to get my hair done real fancy...
What if the brothers just wore appropriate, modest, simple, clothing? Ties if they want to, but no crazy patterns and things? Suit jackets if they want, but no zoot suits? What if the sisters also dressed appropriate, modest and simply, plain colored skirts, blouses and jackets? Why the need for gowns and prom dresses, and hair all fancy? My sister has pictures of her at Youth Congress with a fancy dress and her hair all done up, and as she went further with the LORD those things went away. She wears her hair down or she puts it in a bun, but she doesn't put a million clips in it, or "poof" it all crazy, or make it all extravagant. Why are brothers and sisters going through all this trouble with the way they dress?
Dress appropriate- No suits in 100 degree weather, and no sandals in freezing temperatures.
Dress modest- ladies dress like ladies and men like men, and cover yourselves in such a way that your body won't be lusted after, by any reasonable person (no one can prevent the lust of the pervert...)
Dress simple- put on clean, modest clothing, that will not catch someone's eye or be "loud" or look extravagant
We are the church- we are not the prom, and although we may be the "King's kids" we do not need to dress like royalty to prove it. HIS kids do not dress like Charles and Diana's kids, and we have no need to wear extravagant things- "for let it be the hidden man of the heart"!
What if the brothers just wore appropriate, modest, simple, clothing? Ties if they want to, but no crazy patterns and things? Suit jackets if they want, but no zoot suits? What if the sisters also dressed appropriate, modest and simply, plain colored skirts, blouses and jackets?
Or what if we all just dressed in the way that we prefer?
How about exercising grace, and allowing people to be themselves?
I agree that some of our hairstyles and dress is way over the top, and honestly opens us up for ridicule. Some of the huge, elaborate hairdos just look plain silly, imo. But, if someone wants to wear them, it's their choice. Why are we always trying to mandate things?
I don't think fancy clothes or suits should be required, neither should they be condemned.
How about letting God's children hear from Him themselves, and live in freedom, instead of all of us feeling like we have to conform to one mold?
Or what if we all just dressed in the way that we prefer?
How about exercising grace, and allowing people to be themselves?
I agree that some of our hairstyles and dress is way over the top, and honestly opens us up for ridicule. Some of the huge, elaborate hairdos just look plain silly, imo. But, if someone wants to wear them, it's their choice. Why are we always trying to mandate things?
I don't think fancy clothes or suits should be required, neither should they be condemned.
How about letting God's children hear from Him themselves, and live in freedom, instead of all of us feeling like we have to conform to one mold?
Nope- not their choice, if they want to follow GOD, for they are purchased with a price. We are commanded against "the putting on of apparel", and extravagance shows pride.
I don't remember boys in suits even at night. Just the preacher's wore suits.
Believe me, EVERY NIGHT, and not just a couple of suits you interchanged. There was a different suit every night on most and then come Friday you pulled out all the stops and it was almost like prom.
We are the church- we are not the prom, and although we may be the "King's kids" we do not need to dress like royalty to prove it. HIS kids do not dress like Charles and Diana's kids, and we have no need to wear extravagant things- "for let it be the hidden man of the heart"!
-Bro. Alex
Dear Little Brother,
As to your comments above. We have 15 grandsons, 12 of them go to the church we
have attended for 50 yrs, founded by my late parents. These grandsons have been
trained up. Our eldest daughter and husband have five fine sons, ages 11 to 25 yrs.
They usually all wear suits, dress shirts and ties when they go church, for the most
part. There are exceptions. Our daughter has home-schooled these five sons, with
great sacrifice. She also shops very carefully for their clothes, never extravagantly.
You don't need to be extravagant to be clean, neat and presentable. We represent
SOMEONE or we are supposed to.
1 I APPEAL to you therefore, brethren, and beg of you in view of [all] the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies [presenting all your members and faculties] as a living sacrifice, holy (devoted, consecrated) and well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable (rational, intelligent) service and spiritual worship.
2 Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Little Brother, I would love for you to check back with me when you get
married, have a wife and children. I can assure you, after a few years you
would be more apt to listen to someone who's been there, done that.
I know of those younger siblings (I am the eldest daughter of 11) and
especially one younger brother that enjoyed telling me what he would do
IF those were his "kids". Later, married, children, I witnessed his "kids' not
obeying him and just in fun I whispered, "If those were my "kids",......! He
grinned and said, "Nancy, I have had to eat of lot of words". I was raised
up in a generation where "children were taught to "listen and learn". Mean-
ing to "be quiet until we had learned". Good training.
Little Brother, I have said none of this to offend you but to hopefully help
you.
One more thing, if and when you get married, the influence of your wife's
upbringing will also carry some weight on raising your children. You will not
be the only influence in the training up and teaching of your children. If you
think for one moment you will have all the say, better forget getting married.
You know I love you and I hope you receive this as "speaking the truth
in love". That is certainly how it is intended. Our children knew, "Momma
will always tell us the truth, whether we like it or not".
Nope- not their choice, if they want to follow GOD, for they are purchased with a price. We are commanded against "the putting on of apparel", and extravagance shows pride.
-Bro. Alex
Who defines extravagance? It's a somewhat subjective term.
Regardless, everyone will answer to God for themselves, they won't answer to me.
This talk of not understanding why someone would be worried about what someone else wears or being offended or feeling out of place because they were not dressed as fancy as the others has me thinking back.
My mother could not really afford to buy me the expensive clothes that a lot of kids wore. I did not have the brand name shoes, the silk ties, the latest guys fashions, etc. My father left when I was 12 and she had to do what she could to support us. She paid her tithes and offerings, paid the bills, bought groceries, and what was left was used for gas in the car for her to get to and from work and MAYBE for us to have something we wanted, if our needs were met. I was a kid and never gave thought to these things really. I liked to dress nice and look good. ALL the kids wore suits, we were taught to. All of them had 4 or 5 suits apiece. I knew most of the kids in our group really well and know I am speaking truth and not stretching it. There were some who did not have the means to buy 4 and 5 suits and I know a few years they did not go to camp because of it.
Were we ever told we HAD to wear them every night? NO. Were we ever told we HAD to wear a different one every night? NO. This all came out of the WAY IT WAS DONE. The ones who were IMPORTANT did it so if you wanted to be IMPORTANT and ACCEPTED you did it.
I think Alex has somewhat of a point. We should be dressing modestly and APPROPRIATELY. We should not be teaching our children that it is REQUIRED, rather by word or deed, to dress to the nines to go to church, camp, or conferences. If someone comes into your assembly dressed in jeans and tee shirt they should not feel like they are not welcome. Do I think we should dress nice to go to church? ABSOLUTLEY, but I do not believe dressing nice HAS to include a suit and gown. Hair should be appropriately and comfortably styled.
We should NOT look at the outward man as a means of judging them as saved or holy. Yes somethings are going to SHOUT at you that a person is not saved, but just because someone is not dressed like a "Southern Belle Debutante" or her date does not mean they are NOT SAVED or WORTHY of HIM.
This attitude that was 'expressed" to me growing up, in deeds not words, is part of the reason I do not PUSH my kids to dress in suits and ties or even dress slacks and dress shirts. I am thankful that our church has relaxed on how they 'want' us to dress for services. It is kind of cool to see the minister in dress slacks and dress shirt and still comfortable with his son in jeans or khakis and untucked shirt, both on the platform. We have those who wear jeans and those who wear suits. IT IS UP TO THEM. Come comfortable but come to WORSHIP. That is the one thing our pastor said, he was not sure how relaxing the 'dress code' was going to effect worship. Our worship never stopped. As a matter of fact I think it went up a notch or two. People now felt comfortable and could freely worship.
Now this is just our church and other places it may not work out the same. The thing is folks, we should not ever make anyone feel uncomfortable in our services, camps, conferences no matter how they are dressed. (and I am speaking of US making them uncomfortable. If God is not pleased with them then let HIM deal with their convictions NOT US on their condemnation)
So MissB and PO you can wear your dress up clothes to our church just allow us to dress casual at yours. =) Alex, I may not be as conservative in style as you would like but allow me to be me and I will allow you to be you. =)
When you are all dressed up just be sure to still worship with the one who can not dress as nice and vice versa.
And I find it interesting that what Sis. Lisa wrote bothered you so much.
-Bro. Alex
It is interesting...how my short post has ruffled some feathers. I've been there in that place, there is a reason.
As for me, whenever offense if given, or anyone made to feel uncomfortable, we are in the wrong. I choose to look through the eyes of love and see things for how they are. I can't continue as things have been in our past.
I read back over my post to make sure I didn't post anything offensively... I don't feel I did, I am entitled to my opinion, because I truly grieved for days after leaving that conference.
I was especially saddened because one of the girls I have become very attached to. She is my daughter's best friend and from a fine catholic family. She stays with us often and we had tried for years to get her to come to church with us, she never would. We would talk to her about the experience we have... but I think between her parents and how she was raised, there has been a fear. I was so happy her parents let her stay the weekend with us and go to the conf. Like I said, it really bothered me when she whispered to me at one point saying she wished she had worn dressier clothes... I stepped back to see what she was seeing... I was already unhappy over the seating situation.
Over the last several years, many teens over the years have come to church with us and received the Holy Ghost.... my girls are very open about their faith and witness to others. They are known by their faith although they haven't dressed "pentecostal" now for at least 3 years... They have been known to stand singing praise and worship songs in harmony in front of the school... drawing a crowd... they have been known for what is on the inside.
They had 4 girls from school receive the Holy Ghost last summer... my girls got to talking to some girls late one July night... there was a youth camp going on, so every body met back at my house.... i piled them all in and we headed for camp.... they were hungry for God... I can't even remember the age group of the youth camp... we walked straight down to the front and they received the Holy Ghost in worship service... every youth official in the service asking me where they were from??
I don't claim to have all the answers for today, but I know that God is not in all the fashion and stuff that goes on in the majority of our youth functions. We really, really need to wake up and realize that we have absolutely nothing in common with the youth of today and kids have enough to face without wading through such differences to even feel a part of what we have. I have seen too much in our youth services and it wouldn't even be edifying to post it... teens know today when something is real.... they see through stuff... why would they want to join something that involves clothes and other hang ups? Why do we have to make God a part of it all?
So much of it is just having a form of godliness.... it is this scripture that keeps rolling over and over in my head... 2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
I don't care if people choose to dress up for church, if that is what you are comfortable with... but I've been raising teens in this current faith and it isn't just about dressing up.... it is all about the "right" clothes and hair do's, it is a culture all of its own, and I do not believe God is in it.
I spent time in prayer early this morning travailing before God...I want to see change, in me, in my family... a true revival...one of my daughters came into my room and laid herself across me praying, weeping before the Lord... I don't have perfect kids, they all have their failures... maybe more than some...but I try to create a love for God and his Spirit in them... even though sometimes I feel like it is a losing battle trying to keep my own girls straight... I have spent much time fasting and praying over this stuff...so I have to go with how I am led of the Spirit.
We really, really need to wake up and realize that we have absolutely nothing in common with the youth of today and kids have enough to face without wading through such differences to even feel a part of what we have.
I think this is a very valid point, and something to think about. I don't necessarily think this is so much about dressing up, though, as just the whole Pentecostal culture. It can feel very exclusive.
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