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Branhamism Discussion of distinctive doctrines of William M. Branham.


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  #141  
Old 05-31-2008, 07:51 AM
Dr. Vaughn
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Re: What would you do

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Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
You can believe that if you like. But here's a mistake I believe most people make. The "Law of God" was etched in stone by the very hand of God and given to Moses. These were the Ten Commandments. These laws are immutable moral laws. The remaining 603 laws are the "Law of Moses". These laws included social, civil, and ceremonial laws that governed society in ancient Israel. Here's another detail to consider...each of these 603 laws can be classified under one of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments were the eternal "Law of God" and served as the foundational principles behind each law in the "Law of Moses". When Christ sealed the New Covenant with his blood he didn't abolish the "Law", i.e., the immutable "Law of God". In fact look closely at what Jesus said regarding the Law (the Law of God),

Matthew 5:17-19
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus himself states the the law (the Law of God, the Ten Commandments) isn't abolished, in fact if any of us teach a man that it's OK to violate the least of them...that man will find himself relegated to being least in the Kingdom of God.

Now...what about the Fourth Commandment? It reads...

Exodus 20:8-11
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Bro...that's FOUR verses. That's the longest commandment in the Ten Commandments. I know the Law of Moses added to this commandment some very burdensome requirements such as not lighting a fire in one's home on the Sabbath, one couldn't travel further than a Sabbath day's journey, one was even stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, etc. All of these laws were designed to prevent anything that could be considered "work" on the Sabbath, the laws had no other individual significance. This was the "Law of Moses" to Israel and was done away with at the Cross. But what remains regarding the un-abolished fourth commandment, what does it command?

-We are to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy (separate).
-We are to work six days and rest on the seventh. Notice it states "rest". We are not to perform any industrious pursuit, labor, or work for gain on the Sabbath. We instead are to worship God and enjoy the fruits of our labor.
-It's a house hold day of rest for one's entire home.
-We are to know that it was blessed and sanctified at creation.

Bro...that second point up there shows that it was commanded that our rest is to be on the SEVENTH day of the week...that's Saturday.

So here is where most people say,

"Show me where the Apostles met and worshiped the Lord on Saturday!!! The BIBLE says they met on the FIRST day, that's Sunday!"


Then they give this proof text....

Acts 20:7
7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

On the surface to the casual observer this might appear to settle the issue. But if looked at closely...it doesn't. Here's why...

In the days of the Bible, the Jewish Calendar that Paul and Luke used was lunar...not solar. That means the Jewish day began at sundown...not sunup. If they met together here in verse 7 on the "first day of the week" and Paul preached and "continued his speech until midnight" that should tell us that they had gathered Saturday evening at sundown, the very beginning of the first day of the week,...and Paul then preached until midnight.

So this proof text actually demonstrates that Paul and these believers gathered together on Saturday evening for food and worship as they closed their Sabbath observance.

We see that the Apostles rutinely engaged in ministry in the synagogues on the Sabbath:

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 16:13
And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

It's a historical fact that the Catholic Church moved the Christian time of gathering to Sunday to distinguish Christians from Jews.

Now...I'm not saying it's wrong to meet on Sunday...but this is a Commandment and the Law of God wasn't abolished. I'm bound to teach it and not teach men to break it. It's meant to be a day of rest and personal devotion, even if your church officially meets on Sunday.

You may disagree...and I might be wrong. But that's my understanding.

Behold I shew you a mystery...

Luke 15:8-9
"8Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? 9And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost."

It was customary for a man to give a woman he was betrothed to a head dress of ten silver coins. These coins represented the covenant of their betrothal, much like the Ten Commandments signified the foundational principles of Jehovah's covenant with His people. Here, the bride-to-be lost one of those ten coins...she searched frantically until she found it. Why? Because should her groom come back and she not have her complete head dress, she would suffer shame and humiliate her groom. She searched frantically until she found it because of her love for the groom...not the value of the coin. I wonder if any of us has lost one of the ten?

God bless.
Hopper, that was a wonderful post and really has me considering having a Saturday night service at our place....

blessings
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  #142  
Old 05-31-2008, 07:57 AM
Dr. Vaughn
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I wish to recant my position on Praise & Worship

If there is one thing I try desperately is to have integrity & honesty. When I have been proven wrong I am not ashamed to admit it.

Perhaps my experience in Pentecost with out of control emotions caused me to go to the other extreme in an effort to be pleasing to the Lord.

While I maintain that "The day of Pentecost" cannot be used a biblical reference for out of control emotions and the term "drunk as ye suppose" has been grossly misued to justify Pentecostal extremism.......I do stand corrected and abolish my previous position that it is wrong to "do your thing" in the house of God......

You guys have successfully proven to me that since Paul did not CONDEMN those OT worship practices then we must not do the same..... However, I still maintain that Pentecost is not as obedient to Paul's teaching on Church Order as they should be.... and Pastors should try much harder to keep chaos which it typically found in Pentecost to a minimum..... Although, I do not see the purpose of running around isles and running the backs of pews, nor do I see it ever happening in the NT... I will no longer condemn it nor those who participate in it.... and issue a public apology and repent for having done so....

Blessings to all
Bro. Vaughn
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  #143  
Old 05-31-2008, 08:41 AM
Rico Rico is offline
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Re: I wish to recant my position on Praise & Worsh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn View Post
If there is one thing I try desperately is to have integrity & honesty. When I have been proven wrong I am not ashamed to admit it.

Perhaps my experience in Pentecost with out of control emotions caused me to go to the other extreme in an effort to be pleasing to the Lord.

While I maintain that "The day of Pentecost" cannot be used a biblical reference for out of control emotions and the term "drunk as ye suppose" has been grossly misued to justify Pentecostal extremism.......I do stand corrected and abolish my previous position that it is wrong to "do your thing" in the house of God......

You guys have successfully proven to me that since Paul did not CONDEMN those OT worship practices then we must not do the same..... However, I still maintain that Pentecost is not as obedient to Paul's teaching on Church Order as they should be.... and Pastors should try much harder to keep chaos which it typically found in Pentecost to a minimum..... Although, I do not see the purpose of running around isles and running the backs of pews, nor do I see it ever happening in the NT... I will no longer condemn it nor those who participate in it.... and issue a public apology and repent for having done so....

Blessings to all
Bro. Vaughn
Sweet.
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  #144  
Old 05-31-2008, 09:46 AM
Grasshopper
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Re: I wish to recant my position on Praise & Worsh

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Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn View Post
If there is one thing I try desperately is to have integrity & honesty. When I have been proven wrong I am not ashamed to admit it.

Perhaps my experience in Pentecost with out of control emotions caused me to go to the other extreme in an effort to be pleasing to the Lord.

While I maintain that "The day of Pentecost" cannot be used a biblical reference for out of control emotions and the term "drunk as ye suppose" has been grossly misued to justify Pentecostal extremism.......I do stand corrected and abolish my previous position that it is wrong to "do your thing" in the house of God......

You guys have successfully proven to me that since Paul did not CONDEMN those OT worship practices then we must not do the same..... However, I still maintain that Pentecost is not as obedient to Paul's teaching on Church Order as they should be.... and Pastors should try much harder to keep chaos which it typically found in Pentecost to a minimum..... Although, I do not see the purpose of running around isles and running the backs of pews, nor do I see it ever happening in the NT... I will no longer condemn it nor those who participate in it.... and issue a public apology and repent for having done so....

Blessings to all
Bro. Vaughn
Good post! No doubt there are excesses in Pentecostal worship. I don't know about all the Pentecostal calisthenics I see at times. Certainly speaking in tongues at the time of prayer and worship is fine. It can be explained to any visitor. But the PREACHING should be of greater priority. I've been to services where they had a "blow out"and nobody preached. I personally don't like that. I believe there should be some form of Word brought to the people, even if real short. I don't like the spastic out of control rolling, jerking, eyes rolling in the back of the head kinda stuff. If you've never seen this in churches you've attended, thank God. I see nothing wrong with dancing in worship...but sometimes I think we need to be admonished to silence the tongues, sit down, and HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD.

God bless yall.
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  #145  
Old 05-31-2008, 09:50 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: I wish to recant my position on Praise & Worsh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn View Post
If there is one thing I try desperately is to have integrity & honesty. When I have been proven wrong I am not ashamed to admit it.

Perhaps my experience in Pentecost with out of control emotions caused me to go to the other extreme in an effort to be pleasing to the Lord.

While I maintain that "The day of Pentecost" cannot be used a biblical reference for out of control emotions and the term "drunk as ye suppose" has been grossly misued to justify Pentecostal extremism.......I do stand corrected and abolish my previous position that it is wrong to "do your thing" in the house of God......

You guys have successfully proven to me that since Paul did not CONDEMN those OT worship practices then we must not do the same..... However, I still maintain that Pentecost is not as obedient to Paul's teaching on Church Order as they should be.... and Pastors should try much harder to keep chaos which it typically found in Pentecost to a minimum..... Although, I do not see the purpose of running around isles and running the backs of pews, nor do I see it ever happening in the NT... I will no longer condemn it nor those who participate in it.... and issue a public apology and repent for having done so....

Blessings to all
Bro. Vaughn
I appreciate this Dr. Vaughn.
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  #146  
Old 05-31-2008, 09:54 AM
Grasshopper
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Re: What would you do

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Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn View Post
Hopper, that was a wonderful post and really has me considering having a Saturday night service at our place....

blessings
The church I attend has Sunday services like everyone else...but on Saturdays we have men's prayer and we men go out to have breakfast. I make Saturday my day of rest with family devotions and family altar. We cook out in the summer and have people over and on occasion have a home Bible study. We do NOTHING relating to the work we do for profit. The Sabbath is a rest that can be observed even without a church "service". My personal conviction after studying the Sabbath is that it is a gift to man...a time to rest and refresh. A gift from God. And we do well to keep it if at all possible.
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  #147  
Old 05-31-2008, 09:56 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: What would you do

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Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
The church I attend has Sunday services like everyone else...but on Saturdays we have men's prayer and we men go out to have breakfast. I make Saturday my day of rest with family devotions and family altar. We cook out in the summer and have people over and on occasion have a home Bible study. We do NOTHING relating to the work we do for profit. The Sabbath is a rest that can be observed even without a church "service". My personal conviction after studying the Sabbath is that it is a gift to man...a time to rest and refresh. A gift from God. And we do well to keep it if at all possible.
God is all wise and if in HIs divine plan thought man needed a day to rest I would say it is a good idea not a commandment as practiced in OT foreshadowing the eternal rest we have in Him.But the practical part seemslike good advise to me.
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  #148  
Old 05-31-2008, 10:05 AM
Rico Rico is offline
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Re: I wish to recant my position on Praise & Worsh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
Good post! No doubt there are excesses in Pentecostal worship. I don't know about all the Pentecostal calisthenics I see at times. Certainly speaking in tongues at the time of prayer and worship is fine. It can be explained to any visitor. But the PREACHING should be of greater priority. I've been to services where they had a "blow out"and nobody preached. I personally don't like that. I believe there should be some form of Word brought to the people, even if real short. I don't like the spastic out of control rolling, jerking, eyes rolling in the back of the head kinda stuff. If you've never seen this in churches you've attended, thank God. I see nothing wrong with dancing in worship...but sometimes I think we need to be admonished to silence the tongues, sit down, and HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD.

God bless yall.

I'm kinda with ya on what you are saying, but only to a certain degree. I agree that things can, and sometimes do, get out of hand. I've seen people who were obviously faking a "blessing". I've seen people act one way when the pastor was in town and another way when he wasn't there. I've seen things get artificially pumped up by the worship leader up front. I've seen lots of stuff go on that shouldn't be going on.

However, I've seen many more instances of honest to goodness worship and exuberant praise. I've seen God use people to usher in a powerful spirit of worship. I've seen God use the huckabuck to break spirits that were trying to dominate the service. I've seen people use praise and worship to break the strongholds the enemy has had on them. I've seen much more good things come from the apostolic hoedown than bad.

I think the key is to be sharp enough to know what direction the Spirit wants to go in. If God is desiring a loud joyful noise kinda praise then we need to go in that direction. If the Spirit is calling out for a time of crying out for the lost, then we need to go in that direction. If the Spirit is desiring a quiet time of reflection then we need to go in that direction. Everything we do in a service needs to be directed towards giving God what He wants from that service.

Also, I hear what you are saying about not liking the blowouts with no preaching. However, sometimes God accomplishes His purpose for a service through a blowout and doesn't need the preaching to get it done. Again, the direction any service takes needs to be the direction God wants it to go in. As soon as we start making up our minds that services need to be this way or that way we start overriding God's sovereignty in His "house". We need to remember that He is the Head and we are His body. The body is subject to the direction of its head. When the body starts to function without direction from its head then the body becomes spastic, unpredictable, unreliable, and of no use.
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  #149  
Old 05-31-2008, 10:39 AM
Grasshopper
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Re: What would you do

Good stuff Rico...Paul said let all things be done to edify. If it edifies...it glorifies. I can accept that.
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  #150  
Old 05-31-2008, 10:48 AM
Dr. Vaughn
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Re: What would you do

RICO - only one disagreement... I see the local church as a training center, traning believers for the work of the ministry... this is our purpose coming together... and should that equipping and training not take place.. to me we have sort of missed the purpose for the service...... honestly in places such as prayer meetings.. home meetings,, when we're alone we can worship God..... and yes even in the setting of the local church.. but if the church and pastor fails to realize the purpose for our gathering then we have indeed gathered in vain....

You see... maybe we arn't from the same background.... but when I was coming up... we tried to figure out ways to get a shout going so we would not have to endure "please turn in your Bibles"

Not being critical but the same mindset seems to be prevelant in Pentecostal & Apostolic circles... again I criticize no where.. I sincerely have a passion for scriptural church services... thanks bro
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