Its not judging, or sending someone to hell. You did not send anyone, nor can you ever send anyone, to hell. The fact is that those that do not obey Gods call go to hell. Again, we are on a discussion board with those that are of like faith (for the most part), so our conversation here would not be the same as it would be towards those that lose a loved one. But when someone asks if Tyndale was saved or lost, all I can do is answer according to scripture, lest someone interpret my silence to say that there is another way to be saved.
Again, this is a public board and you might be surprised at how many backsliders and non-Apostolics just might end up reading it.
I don’t believe in being silent. I tell them this is what the Bible teaches. And therefore if they want to be sure of anything they have to obey the Bible…and if they want to gamble with their immortal soul, they’re free to go down the road to the First Church of the Frozen Chosen. This keeps dialogue open and prevents provoking them to reject the gospel outright. It brings them to the place where they can safely consider what the Scripture is saying…without retorting verse for verse. If God’s not drawing them by his Spirit…they’re free to go their way, but the door is still open. I try to never burn that bridge or deeply offend unless I feel God specifically calling me to do so. And here’s an amazing thing…I’ve never yet felt God tell me to speak strongly against a person, doctrine, or sin where God didn’t leave a door of mercy wide open.
Here’s something that bothers me. We sing songs written by Trinitarians and we use books and materials by them. I’ve even heard preachers “modify” their sermons and preach ‘em. We even read and use bibles produced and translated by Trinitarians. I feel a bit uneasy offering blanket condemnations. We say there was always an Apostolic Church through the ages. Well…where were they? What Bible did they use? (I’d vote we still use it!) Where are their songs of worship? Where are their churches? When we hear of a group that may have been Modalist we rarely see them believing exactly like we do. We never seem to see Montanism and Modalism (with Jesus name baptism) combined in a single body. Many were even polygamous. I remember being told that the Cathars were Apostolics. Bro…I studied some of the writings and histories attributed to them. NO WAY. They were dualists believing that God and Satan were equals. If they existed, they left no evidence meaning they had no impact, and it could be argued that the gates of Hell prevailed. If their wasn’t an Apostolic Church…but God had no mercy for those in the traditional church, the gates of Hell prevailed. Either way Hell prevailed…unless God’s mercy was greater.
When I’m teaching a person and they ask me about church history, I’m uncomfortable telling them some of the things we typically attribute our movement to. Without solid evidence for a church like ourselves…I cannot say there was a significant church of any consequence that believed like we do. It’s about knowing that what I’m saying is true. There’s nothing worse than telling a person well steeped in church history and doctrine that we are associated with Montanists, Cathars, and theosophist Christians and they call you on it. Bro…it will destroy the truth’s testimony.
Here’s a final consideration, we make exceptions in other areas to account for God being a just judge. For example with children; I know ministers who have presided over funerals of 7 year old kids who were un-baptized and not filled with the Holy Ghost and he stated that he believed they were saved. They seem to forget that sin is a part of our nature that must be forgiven and atoned for…not merely what we’ve done. Also I taught Sunday school for 8 years. I’ve seen 6 year olds get the Holy Ghost and be water baptized after repenting of their sins. If there can to absolutely NO exceptions…the 7 year old in this example never made it to Heaven.
I’d much rather believe that we serve a just and merciful God and trust him to do the judging than assume I am qualified to judge based on my interpretation of the Word. I can be mistaken. God is never mistaken.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
I'm still waiting for you to show me an Apostolic church you claim existed down throughout history. I'd also like to know what Bible they used. If you can prove that the Apostolic faith existed down through the centuries...you have a case and I'll gladly reconsider. If not...you could be in total error regarding history for all we know.
So is the Apostolic movement the Church restored from Apostasy or is she a separate religion altogether? If we're not the church restored...why were ALL of our founders and pioneers men who came out of the traditional church? Certainly at least ONE would have come from this mysterious historical Apostolic Church you say existed.
Doesn't it bother you that nearly everything we have is borrowed from the Trinitarians? Everything from some of our greatest hymns to our translation of the Bible? Can't you see that we're an end product of a reformation? If we're not...why is the church of the living God so...un-original? As I said before, why didn't we at least maintain a Bible translation apart from the historical church's translations if we existed apart from the historical church?
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
I'm still waiting for you to show me an Apostolic church you claim existed down throughout history. I'd also like to know what Bible they used. If you can prove that the Apostolic faith existed down through the centuries...you have a case and I'll gladly reconsider. If not...you could be in total error regarding history for all we know.
So is the Apostolic movement the Church restored from Apostasy or is she a separate religion altogether? If we're not the church restored...why were ALL of our founders and pioneers men who came out of the traditional church? Certainly at least ONE would have come from this mysterious historical Apostolic Church you say existed.
Doesn't it bother you that nearly everything we have is borrowed from the Trinitarians? Everything from some of our greatest hymns to our translation of the Bible? Can't you see that we're an end product of a reformation? If we're not...why is the church of the living God so...un-original? As I said before, why didn't we at least maintain a Bible translation apart from the historical church's translations if we existed apart from the historical church?
Concerning this supposed restoration was it God did NOT have the power to maintain what He began or did NOT have the will?
Many historians have given evidence of a truth preaching Apostolic church through the ages.(Marvin, Chalfant, Wiesser, etc.)
Concerning this supposed restoration was it God did NOT have the power to maintain what He began or did NOT have the will?
I think a brief look at ancient Israel would serve as an excellent example. Israel was God’s people. Yet we see throughout their history how the nation descended into apostasy time and time again until God sent a prophet or man of God to turn the people back to Torah (God’s Law). We see how Jerusalem was even devastated and the Temple had to be rebuilt and the God ordained pattern of worship and atonement had to be revisited. We also see how kings and prophets searched the Scriptures and found how the people and the religious leaders had neglected the issues of God’s commands such as the Sabbath and tithe. In Israel we see the human tendency to drift into tradition and apostasy…but we also see something else…God had much mercy on his people and restored them with REVIVAL time and time again.
I now ask YOU…did God NOT have the power to maintain the Israel He began…or did He NOT have the will?
It’s not that God doesn’t have the power or the will…it’s simply that fallen human beings distort, traditionalize, and apostatize over a period of time. This is why REVIVAL is so important. Revival isn’t an option….revival is our SURVIVAL.
Carry what we see in ancient Israel into the Church Age. We see the church become popular and eventually she’s coopted by the state. The offices of bishop become very powerful political posts and soon the church is just another political social entity. In the process she traditionalizes, forms liturgies, institutes a professional priesthood, builds massive edifices to demonstrate her power and herd the masses to hear her teachings, the priests adopt icons, and idols. Converted pagans void of true spiritual revelation bring in pagan terms and traditions, only to Christianize them. God sends a revival…a man begins to read the Bible and he is burned at the stake for challenging the priesthood. Soon there are periods of revival throughout history and they are met with extreme persecution. Eventually the Catholic Church chains the Bible to her altars and forbids the common man to read it. Repentance is hindered with the false doctrines of penance and indulgences, water baptism is ceremonialized into sprinkling and titles are spoken instead of the name, many experience the Holy Ghost in what was called “spiritual ecstasy” and these are often denounced as heretics and embraced as monastic mystics after their deaths. It seems Hell is conqured…but then a man named Martin Luther begins to actually read his Bible and God’s Spirit moves upon his tradition laden heart and begins to show him truths that challenge the Roman Catholic Church. He nails his 95 thesis to the wall of his church and the Reformation begins. The Reformation brought waves of revival as men began to turn toward God’s Word. Various reformers (such as Knox and Huss) begin to press deeper into the Word as scholarship begins to uncover truths that had been hidden for nearly a 1,000 years. Soon Revivalists Wesley, Whitfield, and others set the world aflame with messages of true repentance and obedience, however their understanding is still limited. Fundamentalist Churches break forth and denominations are formed around truths discovered in Scripture. Yet God has more. When the time was right those who had repented of sin cried out in hunger for God’s next restoration…a revival. The time was right…God poured out the Holy Ghost in massive power at Stone’s Folley, Azuza, and in Wales. It sets the Christian world on fire. Of course Jesus promised something…the Holy Ghost would lead us into all truth. With the fullness of Holy Ghost baptism in operation again God reveals to those students of the Word that He is manifest in Christ alone….and the doctrine of Oneness breaks forth among the Pentecostals. Soon Jesus name baptism is restored.
Bro…anyone who knows Israel can see how God has a consistent record with restoring his people from their traditions and apostasies. Certainly it’s a possibility that this is also seen in the Church.
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Many historians have given evidence of a truth preaching Apostolic church through the ages.(Marvin, Chalfant, Wiesser, etc.)
I’ve read Marvin, Chalfant, and Wiesser’s work. For example Marvin and Chalfant state that the Cathars were early Apostolics. Bro…patchworks of the Cathar’s writings still exist. They were Gnostic duelists who also embraced polygamy and reincarnation. Marvin even proposed that Arians and Apostolics are of the same cloth…bro…that’s far, far, far from the Truth. Marvin Arnold proposed that the Gothic Bible was widely distributed among early Apostolics and was indeed the Apostolic Bible…again Gothic Christianity inherited the errors of the Arians. The Gothic Bible is Arian...it's not even Modalist! Marvin Arnold also claims that the Nestorians were early Apostolics…bro…we have plenty of Nestorian writings and we can even travel to Asia and visit Nestorian churches and shrines…they were NOT Apostolics. The only thing things groups have in common is that they denied the Trinity. Some were Modalists, some Manachian, some Duelists, some Arian. Is God a God of confusion????????????????? Is this were you trace YOUR spiritual heritage?
I firmly believe that the bitterness against the Trinitarian Church’s rejection of our truth lead many men to produce a form of Apostolic Historical Revisionism that has distorted the truth of many of these early groups. Please note…Christadelphians, JW’s, and Sabbatarians also trace their supposed history to these groups. Why? The rank and file Christian knows so little about them it can be made to appear that there has always been a consistent church. But in-depth research will reveal otherwise. Most of these anti-Trinitarian groups didn’t baptize in Jesus name. I believe it was the Bogomils or the Cathars who regarded “baptism” as a meditative experience of confession…there wasn’t even water involved. LOL
I’m sincerely looking for TRUTH on the matter. Can you PROVE to me that I can trace my history to these Gnostic groups? Can you prove they weren’t polygamists, duelists, Gnostics, and seditionists? I’ve tried and tried and tried. Why? Because truth matters to me. It’s not enough for me to merely pass the buck to Marvin, Chalfant, or Wiesser if I’m incorrect and found to be lying on history. If God could have mercy on the extreme error in these groups, errors exhibited in what we have of their own works…certainly God could have mercy on Martin Luther, John Huss, John Knox, Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Wesley, Whitfield, leading up to Parham, McAlister, Urshan, Haywood, and others…who by the way saw themselves as a RESTORATION of the church without even referencing these obscure cults we find down through history. Did these groups suddenly VANISH in 1890? Where are their decedents today? They melted into obscurity as more and more Biblical light was revealed and there errors were increasingly rejected.
Can you help me with this bro? I’ll gladly reverse my position.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
For the reader: Here are some of Marvin's teachings regarding historic Apostolics he claims preserved the "truth" as we know it. Please do some research on these groups and compare what you find to what Marvin tells us:
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Here are some words or names used in this book. Sometimes their definitions or meanings are only found in history books. Many of these words are not in our dictionaries. We used the following definition
APOSTOLIC: Apostle-like, what the Apostles taught in Acts. The doctrine the twelve apostles preached.
ALBIGENSIANS: Of Albi, France. They were mostly Apostolic Christians in organizations called by this name-especially between AD 900 and 1490. Some called them Cathari.
ANABAPTIST: Anabaptism. This simply means to re-baptize someone. Apostolics would always re-baptize converts forsaking Rome's mode into the Acts 2:38 formula.
ARIANISM: Arius, Arians of ca.AD 290-335. Arianism never died. Arius was excommunicated at Nicaea for denying the Trinity idea.
ATEMONITES: Followers of Artemon. He was a Monarchian with Acts two doctrine in Septimius Severus' time. AUTO Da FE: It meant to Catholics-An Act of Faith! That is, they burned non-Catholics at the stake! It was a gala affair for Spanish Catholics, like a carnival! Especially they burned Jews. There were at least 2000 Autos in Spain alone.
CATHARI: Catharer, or Cathari, meant pure. This was a general term. Most were Apostolics in many different organizations. Rome's religious institution slandered Donatists as Cathari.
CATHOLICISM: The whole Catholic system, the total concept. It falsely called itself Christianity.
CATHOLIC HIERARCHY: The top Romish leaders, the episcopi episcoporum.
COERCIONISM: The use of verbal or military force. CONCORDAT: An agreement between a pope and a sovereign or government. However, we refer specifically to the one drawn up, on July 20, 1933, between Eugenio Pacelli (Pope Pius XII), and, Nazi Germany's Adolf Hitler. Its Article 16, signed the Catholic system in Germany over to Hitler.
CONDUCTUAL-AVERAGISM: It means the average morality of an average sinner on the street. Conduct of unregenerates, a low standard of holiness.
CONFISCATION: I use this word herein to denote the scheme or practice of the Catholic system during its INQUISITIONS as it STOLE or SEIZED non Catholic's properties. Catholic Hitler stripped the Jews, is an example. Catholics stripped the Waldenses.
CONSTANTINIANISM: This means the spirit of Constantine that seeped into Catholicism; cruelty, force by decree or military means. The evil practices in Rome's religion.
CONVENTICLE: A secret place of worship.
DONATUS: Donatism, after Donatus, one-God Christianity.
EBIONITES: Economically poor Palestinian Jews that held Acts two belief.
GLOSSOLALIA: Holy Ghost tongues-speaking other tongues.
INQUISITION: Earth's most horrifying thing. It was the Catholic scheme to inquire into a non-Catholic's religion, a forced Roman Catholic Inquest, Tribunal Courts. Pope Gregory IX launched the great INQUISITION in 1233 and lasted until 1834. In it some historians estimate 68,000,000 perished, Romish Inquisitors like Torquemada confiscated their properties. Ferdinand-Isabella and later Hitler all operated about the same. In 1478 Sixtus IV ordered the Inquisition into Spain. In 1933 Pope Pius XII signed the CONCORDAT with Hitler's Nazi Germany. They killed millions of Jews.
INQUISITOR: Usually a Dominican priest a spy. He spied on those alleged to be heretics-Jews and Apostolics, etc. He got 1/3rd of the bounty.
KERYGMA: Apostolic preaching of Acts two. MANI: Manichaeism. Mani founded the Manichee bodies. He was a Persian of ca.AD 240. The Manichee held the Oneness Godhead and Acts two doctrine until ca. AD 1800.
MODALISTIC MONARCHIANISM: This means "one-God" doctrine. One "mode" of worshipping one "MONARCH-God." It was the Deuteronomy 6:4 Godhead belief of the Acts 2:38 Apostolic people. They were Jesus Name Christians.
MONOTHEISM: Hebraic, one-God belief as is in Deut. 6:4. NOETUS: The founder of Noetianism, of Noetians. He was a one-God bearer of Acts 2:38 ecclesiology, of AD 150? to 219.
PEREGRINI: A peregrine was a land traveling as well a roving missionary, early preacher. Often they preached where a ship docked, e.g., Glastonbury, England by AD 37-42. 8
PRIMITIVE: The first and oldest, as applied to Upper Room Christianity. It means original, also. Thus, Upper Room Christianity is primitive.
PRISCILLIANISM: It was the same as Montanism, a tongues-speaking variant of Oneness Pentecostalism. Priscilla, a glossolalist, was in Montanus' church, therefore the name.
PATRIPASSIAN (ism): Pa-tri-passian means The Father Himself suffered. It denied Rome's Trinity idea. It denotes Acts 2:38 doctrine in a "Jesus Only" sense. It was the same as Judaic-Christian monotheism. It went with Deut. 6:4.
SABELLIAN: Sabellius, of AD 257, propagated one-God-ism of Deut. 6:4 that its enemies nicknamed, Sabellianism. Sabellianism was a one-God doctrine coupled with Acts 2:38 tenets. It bitterly denounced Rome's Trinity theory. The nominal religious world despised (despises) the doctrine.
SAMOSATENES: Paul of Samosata founded Samosatenism. They were also called Paulianists. They held Acts two tenets as well as a Judaistic Godhead doctrine. Blunt, on p. 516, classed him as a Sabellian-Monarchian with Acts 2:38 ecclesiology. His wife was a Jewess.
THAUMATURGY: This means unnumbered divine miracles by the hundreds or thousands. See: R. A. Knox, pp. 375, 376, about 600 miracles, outpouring of divine miracles.
WIEDERTAUFER: It was a medieval slander hurled at rebaptizers (Anabaptists). It was of German origin. To rebaptize Lutherans or Catholics often meant the death sentence.
WINCKELEHE: What Catholics as well High Protestant Reformers slandered as illegal marriages, it insinuated that a man and his wife were illegally cohabiting if a Catholic or Lutheran priest did not conduct the wedding ceremony.
WINCKLER: It means a hidden or out-of-the-way place; a conventicle, or secret place of worship.
WINCKELPREDIGTEN: It means secret worship, and winckel-preachings.
WINCKLERISM: Catholic, Lutheran, and Zwinglian leaders slandered every religion outside of their own as Wincklerism. This also included Apostolic Christianity.
ZWANGTAUFE: It was specifically a cruel Roman Catholic invention. Zwangtaufe means, "water baptism by force into the Trinity formula." Reformers supported Zwangtaufe.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
I think a brief look at ancient Israel would serve as an excellent example.
Man you crack me up you post the longest essays on here. You referred to this one as brief? I am like the ADD poster child, I forget what you are talking about one third of the way through your post. Concise and precise grasshopper.
Man you crack me up you post the longest essays on here. You referred to this one as brief? I am like the ADD poster child, I forget what you are talking about one third of the way through your post. Concise and precise grasshopper.
Doh! LOL Sorry.
Israel would digress into apostasy we we see God restore her repeatedly. I think it's silly to propose that God doing this suggests that he lacks the power or will to preserve his people. Remember, Israel and the Church are both subject to human error and are in need of repeated revival.
How's that? lol
For give me. I'm a typist. I can type almost faster than I can talk. I type my mind and before I know it I have pages of information.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
What do you believe personally? Are we a Revival of Truth or are we a continuation of truths passed down through history in various sects and movements as illustrated by some?
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
What do you believe personally? Are we a Revival of Truth or are we a continuation of truths passed down through history in various sects and movements as illustrated by some?
Only two possibilities?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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