It's a Generational Cultural Conflict

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Your remark underscores my very point.


So, would you care to guess how long it will be, or what future generation of UPCI folks will be debating licensing homo preachers into the ministry?

Unfortunatly I believe it would split first, as it has already.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by scotty

Unfortunatly I believe it would split first, as it has already.

Of course it would split again...just as it has split before. But, the charter given to it by the State of Missouri would remain with a body of people just the same. The UPCI charter will remain perpetual as will be a large number of people under its umbrella regardless of how much it may come to resemble the devil in generations to come. That is NOT to say that it is destined to resemble the devil.

[RevBuddy]

Apprehended:

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response.

I have no argument that unless this present generation begins to more highly value the Pentecostal culture that has brought it to this point, then there will be a continual degradation of this precious and spiritual culture.

This statement is not associated with individuals...of course, we've had our share of rascals with well-hidden sins. This was not intended as a discussion of the "trees," but rather the "forest." And it is true that culture is always changing, but that is no excuse to adapt and to modify The Church to the surrounding, always-changing social cultures.

And yes, I agree that evangelism is THE critical calling of the Church. And, in far too many of our churches, it is not. However, having said that, evangelism AT ALL COST is not the calling either. What made the Hebrew Children troublesome to the Egyptians was not that they embraced the culture of their slavemasters! It was the fact that in a lonely and cruel land, they were able to sustain their Hebrew culture. And, remember, Truth will not be embraced by the world at large. There is a wide way and a narrow one. Scripture tells us that "few there be that find it." However, unique culture does not then provide an excuse for isolation. Maintaining Spirit-filled worship services, based on strong doctrinal Truths in our songs, in our worship and in our sermons IS CRITICAL to sustaining a Pentecostal culture, and it can't be polluted with themes and messages that DO NOT have adequate scriptural foundation.

As to the final position of the Church as to homosexuality and other currently heavily promoted social issues, you have a strong point. Where will we decide to "fall on our sword?"...at same-sex marriage...at homosexual ministry...at a diluted doctrine??? I don't have the answer to this question, but I do know that I must do my very best to maintain a powerful and life-changing Apostolic culture that has produced us all. I do not proposed to maintain a culture for culture's sake. Maybe it would be better stated that I want to maintain an "atmosphere or environment" of Spirit and Truth where the Lord can have free rein to accomplish His will in our lives.

Many of our churches, but not all, are doing their very best to imitate every Charismatic theme and style in their worship design, schedule and content. In doing so, their leaders make a critical error. By abandoning their own dynamic Spiritual culture, they go away from Spiritual authority and toward a man-based authority.

In regards to the statement about two-marriage preachers, many of you would be shocked if some of us began to name some of the more prominent ministers in our history who were two-marriage guys. I'm not saying that this impunes their ministry. In fact, every marriage and the circumstances surrounding it are unique and the facts are always different. Each should be judged individually. But that's a discussion for another day.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

[A_PoMo]

I don't think this generational conflict has just popped up out of nowhere. I remember this same stuff happening in '92 when the "liberals" were run off. Maybe what's happening now is a backlash to that terrible sequence of events as the young folks who witnessed the slandering and old guard's neo-con politically engineered expulsion of liberals back watched what happened then and vowed not to let it happen to them. What goes around comes around...and the cycle keeps happening until somebody has some leadership courage to stand up and rebuke the brethren for their parochialism and for contending for their views to the disunity of the brethren. How often has that happened? Not often enough, that's for sure.

The whole "homo" thing is a red herring to motivate a neo-con base with fear. Kind of like WMD in Iraq.

The culture is changing and we should be like Paul and become all things for all men in order to save some. The culture of my grandpa and my father was a fading Judeo/Christian culture that responded to the tactics of Enlightenment. Our culture is highly relativisitic, pluralistic and post-Christian, post-modern culture and while the fundamental message of Christ doesn't change the style, the music, the presentation, and the communication methods used to proclaim the gospel do change in order to remain effective.

Is God so small and inept that he can't move among styles and cultures? To not allow this third gen to do what God has put in their heart seems to repeat the mistakes of your fathers. The mistakes of your fathers have built an impressive bureaucracy and thriving political machine that feeds on protocol, decorum, and platitudinous pronouncements but it has also resulted in killing innovation, squashing young mens dreams and has created a religious culture firmly mired in the mid 20th century. Martin Luther was 29 when he nailed his list of 99 on the door of the church. The old guard tried to protect their culture and their immutable doctrines. But I think we have all benefited from his impertinence.

I guess it would also be good to remember that church as we do it today is the result of innovations throughout the ages that are now considered "classic" and "traditional". Pulpits, platforms, pews, sermons, organs, altar calls, etc... they were all decried in their time when introduced by upstart young people.

The important thing is that the message is preached and people are saved, not the preservation of a religious culture.

[RevBuddy]

Is THE message preached without fear or favor? Are people saved? Certainly, they are, BUT... are many taught how to speak with other tongues, lead without substance, taught with Internet doctrine and rocked to sleep so as not to cause anyone to "feel uncomfortable or convicted."

The preservation of Pentecostal doctrine, culture and solid biblical tradition IS IMPORTANT...and essential to an end-time revival of souls...and SOULS are the heartbeat of God...

[TRFrance]

Well, written post, but I must differ with you on this part, though:

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

Pray for the "fourth" generation. It may not survive the conflict...

Actually, I think the "fourth generation" will be fine.

Just as God told Elijah He had reserved 7,000 men unto Himself who had not bowed the knee to Baal... likewise God will always have an core of faithful Apostolic believers, unto the end.

I do believe the church will face a great "falling away" in the future; in fact, some may say it has already begun. But the "fourth generation" will be fine, although they will probably face times of great upheaval.

God will always have a people faithful to Him and His word.

[A_PoMo]

Elder, I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative. I certainly don't want to do that. However, I don't have any idea of what you're talking about here. Are people being saved? Yes, every day. Are people being filled with the Spirit and being born again? Yes, every day. Are people speaking in tongues? Yes, every day. I'm not sure what you mean by "fear and favor" and "leading with substance" and "internet doctrine" and the like. Perhaps you can explain.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "culture" too. If you mean partisan politics as usual, character and career 'stoning' of wounded and fallen ministers, expelling those with whose 'holiness' we don't agree, having music that doesn't sound like anything but re-hashed 20's and 30's music, eschewing technology as 'evil', and insisting on traditions of men in worship and protocol over the effectiveness of the church then I would have to strongly disagree with you whether we ought to preserve those things. If you mean culture in passion for prayer, Bible study, truth, evangelism, healing and reconciliation of people and relationships, a deep passion for spiritual worship and praise and the like then yes, I say we need to keep this culture. The rest of it is killing that though.

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Well, written post, but I must differ with you on this part, though:



Actually, I think the "fourth generation" will be fine.

Just as God told Elijah He had reserved 7,000 men unto Himself who had not bowed the knee to Baal... likewise God will always have an core of faithful Apostolic believers, unto the end.

I do believe the church will face a great "falling away" in the future; in fact, some may say it has already begun. But the "fourth generation" will be fine, although they will probably face times of great upheaval.

God will always have a people faithful to Him and His word.

I don't really disagree with your conclusions; however, the "fourth generation" needs to develop a consistent determination to follow after the Lord of Glory and not the lords of men...a powerful, personal relationship with the Lord cannot be substituted with a relationship with mortal men or human leadership...