Dissatisfied Member of a future WWPF Church

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Seeker

I don’t think that there is necessarily an easy answer to the question of rebellion against pastoral authority, but anything we do must be done with prayer.

The problem is Pastoral authority is not absolute. Questioning is not rebellion either. The person is not infallible

Originally Posted by Minty

When you have been born and raised in the UPC, it is hard to just drop out. It is very disturbing because families, friends and churches are being torn apart. I know that several of the ministers leaving have different view points and things that they don't allow their congregations to participate in. Christmas for one...some leaving even allow trees and others condemn you to hell for having one. What about colored shirts (ok for some but not others)? Wedding bands? How long will this new organization be united before they split because of something else?

This is also a concern of mine. Someone said that WWPF was an appropriate name because it sounds like a wrestling match. I don't know that this is a good way to express it, but it is a genuine concern. Conservatives and especially utlra conservatives have been known to splinter over relatively minor issues.

[TrmptPraise]

Originally Posted by Seeker

This statement I highlighted is an interesting view that I had not considered before.

I hope that I expressed it clearly enough. My question there was what is the best for your walk with God and for your current assembly. Sometimes when we stay in a situation that is not conducive for us spiritually (meaning that there is something that bugs us, hinders us or we do not agree with), as human beings we tend to let that wash over into our attitudes of worship, prayer, and other involvement within the assembly.

Please do not take my statement to indicate that just any disagreement or lack of unity between one's views and the pastor's is justification for the saint to leave. I have seen the subjection argument work both great and very badly.

I hope I didn't muddy the waters too much there.

[AGAPE]

Originally Posted by IAintMovin

Personally I would discuss it with my pastor and not seek advice from a forum...........but that is just me.......

ditto

Originally Posted by AGAPE

ditto

I know that the information presented here is personal and I have used this forum as a method for sorting through my thoughts. If I have done wrong in that then I sincerely apologize. From the beginning, I have said that I was not seeking advice and that I wanted to explore the question of pastoral authority and rebelling against it. If you read my posts I am sure that you will not get the impression that I am a desperate soul reaching out for help. This is merely a discussion and the background, although it was unnecessary to the actual question, was helpful in fleshing out the meaning of the question and showing the emotions that these events are causing. I have no plans harm anyone, nor do I have any radical changes in mind for my personal life. I will continue in my genuine submission to my pastor. When him and I discuss these matters again (he already knows how I feel) then I will again tell him the same that I have revealed here. I am dissatisfied with the turn of events and would prefer that things were different, but since they are as they are, I will do the best I can with what God has given me. I desire first to please God and if I fail in that, then nothing else matters.

When I said that I was open to good advice please understand that in the light of what else I said. I AM open to good advice. I think that I can learn from anyone who has knowledge on any subject. If anyone can think of a way for me to do things better in anything at all, then I am open. If you do give me advice though, don't be offended if I do not take it. Everything must be in harmony with God's word and also we all must seek for God's direction in our lives.

Also, I made this statement about being open to advice to make the other statement about not seeking advice to not seem too harsh and closed-minded.

Does anyone really think that this type of forum should be used for getting advice? Should I just take a poll and base every important decision of my life on it? I think that the very idea of this is silly. I will with the help of God and my pastor make the important decisions of my life.

Some have offered advice, and in reality I think most of it is good and well meaning and I mean no offense to you at all. I am only a little frustrated that I have had to make this point three times.

Please forgive me if this seems offensive. I really do not mean for it to be.

The focus here is one of ethics and responsibility both within the local assembly and within the organizations in view of the current situation.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Seeker

One thing that has not been addressed in these discussions is that of the individual church member. My pastor is on the WWPF site and the I personally do not want to leave the organization. He has not made an official announcement about his plans, but he has been working over the past year to secure votes to remove the church from the UPCI. I also was approached about leaving the organization some months ago and the pastor even mentioned that possibly some other fellowship was being formed. At this point, I believe that he has enough votes to pull the church from the UPCI, because he has been working on this for at least a year.

We have had fellowship with some of the men listed on the site and with their churches. I sincerely believe that those men whom we have had preach for us are very sincere and godly men. These include Larry Booker, Johnny Godair, Floyd Odom, and Nate Wilson and some others. Some of these, I have been acquainted with for many years and I do not question their motives and intentions (it is not for me to judge the heart, which I cannot see), but I do doubt their wisdom in forming this fellowship.

Over the years following my conversion, I have become more moderate in my views and have moved away from some conservative positions (although I have the highest respect for those who hold to stronger standards) because I feel that they pull a person away from true spirituality. The standards, I believe, do have their place in defining who we are as a people, but many churches teach standards and do not teach the biblical principles that led to the establishment of the standards. This causes weakness in believers and creates a multitude of inconsistencies in their lives. For example, many would never watch a movie, but would read a novel that has graphic content, simply because the former is preached against (even though it may be more wholesome) and the latter is not. I sincerely believe that the conservatism that is represented by this new fellowship is one full of such inconsistencies. This also I have noticed in my church and in the churches that we fellowship with.

Also among this group are some of the more ultra conservatives that preach in an offensive manner and dare anyone to question them. I have observed this many times over the years since my conversion. It always produces more harm than good and many sit under it year after year not knowing the damage it is doing to their spirit.

I believe very much in sincere submission and obedience to my pastor and I do not want to be a rebel, but I am very concerned about the direction that our church is taking and I feel that I may not want to be a part of it. I have considered that if my pastor can rebel against his organization because he feels his principles are being violated, then I can rebel against him for the same reason, however, I am not sure that this logic is sound. This is a very delicate matter and there are others out there in the same situation, so I ask that anyone who responds considers carefully what they write and how it may affect others.

Please understand that I am not necessarily asking for advice (although I will take good advice from any source). My question is an ethical one about rebellion to church leadership and its possible justification especially during the current situation. I think I can argue either side quite well, but I want further input for myself and others who may be in similar situations.

I am new to this site and this is my first post here. Because of the nature of the situation, I will not reveal information about myself. I do enjoy reading the various threads and have found many to be quite informative. Thanks.

I don't have any advice, but I certainly appreciate your spirit!