Being a military brat (moved 13 times in 18 years), I have quite an experience of being in different churches with different cultures. I say cultures because never once was biblical salvation or scriptural holiness ever questioned in any of the churches from around the country (or overseas) that I attended. However, somethings that may be perceived as cultural were different. Question as to whether or not to attend a professional ball game, youth involved in organized sports, is the bowling alley off limits, and other various issues. Those were the cultural differences that i experienced in my family's travels.
That being said, when we chose a church to attend, just because I may not have agreed with some of the pastor's cultural stances, does not mean that we did not put ourselves under the rule of that pastor. In fact by choosing that church (whether it be because of the spirit we felt, or the style or attitude we experienced in the services, or the initial messages we heard from the pulpit), we understood that we were placing ourselves under the subjection of the pastor. That is to say we were placing ourselves under the rule of the leadership that we has chosen.
i did this as well. when i first got in our current pastor was then our youth pastor but he moved and we had a different pastor for 2 years that openly preached against some things and i adhered to this (simply out of respect for him...b/c i helped with the youth, sang in choir, etc.) but then we had some problems with him, he resigned and our old youth pastor moved back and became pastor. i know how he feels about certain things and he purposely doesn't preach against some things b/c he leaves it up to us so i would say that i did/do put myself under subjection.
I have not read this thread - but the letter is great. This is the kind of strong leader/leadership we need to see displayed at this time.
BRAVO!!
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Why stop at standards? If your reasoning is we should all do stardards just for the sake of giving it all to Christ, why not become an Amish? Live without Electricity. Don't use modern plumbing....Don't drive a car or listen to radio or CDs....dress in all black. Have church services without music...we can make up a ton of dos and don'ts that we can use as a measuring stick for just how much we have given to Him.....what really matters is what the word says. Some people DO feel those standards are weights.
Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, Mat 23:6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues Mat 23:7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
Wouldn't it be awesome to really know the amish had the full truth and we lived like them. You are not offending me or proving to me anything I don't feel it is such a bad idea-
There maybe some people batized in Jesus name in the AOG, I am glad they have been. If they live a holy life they can be saved. My comments are pointed more at the doctrine of the AOG. People who are not baptized in Jesus name, filled with the Holy Ghost and live a holy life will not be saved. That is not judging people, that is just standing on the word.
I don't know how long you have been around AFF but in the last couple months there have been a LOT of people attacking apostolic doctrine. I hope your not going to join them.
lol....So living a Holy life...an effort on your part, makes you saved and not rather living a Holy Life is a by product of being saved?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
There maybe some people batized in Jesus name in the AOG, I am glad they have been. If they live a holy life they can be saved. My comments are pointed more at the doctrine of the AOG. People who are not baptized in Jesus name, filled with the Holy Ghost and live a holy life will not be saved. That is not judging people, that is just standing on the word.
I don't know how long you have been around AFF but in the last couple months there have been a LOT of people attacking apostolic doctrine. I hope your not going to join them.
BTW...FOR THE RECORD...what they have been "attacking" for the most part is the idea that baptism saves us, NOT being baptized in Jesus name, the need to be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues or the need for repentance.
There are and have been men in our circles since the formation of Oneness orgs that preached Acts 2:38 and even Standards but believed salvation was by means of faith alone and that if a person was truely saved they were to be obedient to the word and be baptized in Jesus name. It gets a little tiring to read folks defining what is Apostolic for everyone else when we've never, as a movement, all agreed on standards or salvation
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Typical UPC-way of doing things... What myself and my sister couldn't stomach anymore with the UPC was the hype- COSTANT HYPE! We got 50 filled with the HG last revival! How many are there next Sunday?! I saw people baptized and then leave, never to return. I just heard a message by a conservative indep brother on this sort of thing, so I know that myself and my sister and a friend of ours are not the only ones dissatisfied. Bro. Haney saying only 27 are leaving and that other splits from the UPC have come to "naught" shows true UPC arrogance. Now I'm not about to get a plane ticket to Tulsa either, and I think the WPF is foolish as is any denomination because it's just not biblical. BUT I can respect the decision of the men who are forming the WPF to break with a denomination that has continually lowered the standard, watered down the message and hyped things up so much that you can't pay attention to half of what they say anymore. Also, from my experience in the UPC, the ministers did market and package the message in such a way that church, conventions and youth rallies were entertaining, but it had no SUBSTANCE. Bro. Haney and the rest can say what they want, but GOD's will is being accomplished with there being a break, and I hope eventually those that break with the UPC will return to the old paths, go to an autonomous and independent church government and resemble the NT church. Also, as for fellowship- go ahead and fellowship, PLEASE we NEED fellowship, but you don't need some WPF or UPC or whatever other organization for good fellowship.
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
RE: Bolded text
This is very commendable actually. When we start thinking every soul we baptise or everyone that is born again in our services must then join our church we are missing the point. Sure they hopefully find a place in the body to grow and bloom... but it must not be limited to our local assembly.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Typical UPC-way of doing things... What myself and my sister couldn't stomach anymore with the UPC was the hype- COSTANT HYPE! We got 50 filled with the HG last revival! How many are there next Sunday?! I saw people baptized and then leave, never to return. I just heard a message by a conservative indep brother on this sort of thing, so I know that myself and my sister and a friend of ours are not the only ones dissatisfied. Bro. Haney saying only 27 are leaving and that other splits from the UPC have come to "naught" shows true UPC arrogance. Now I'm not about to get a plane ticket to Tulsa either, and I think the WPF is foolish as is any denomination because it's just not biblical. BUT I can respect the decision of the men who are forming the WPF to break with a denomination that has continually lowered the standard, watered down the message and hyped things up so much that you can't pay attention to half of what they say anymore. Also, from my experience in the UPC, the ministers did market and package the message in such a way that church, conventions and youth rallies were entertaining, but it had no SUBSTANCE. Bro. Haney and the rest can say what they want, but GOD's will is being accomplished with there being a break, and I hope eventually those that break with the UPC will return to the old paths, go to an autonomous and independent church government and resemble the NT church. Also, as for fellowship- go ahead and fellowship, PLEASE we NEED fellowship, but you don't need some WPF or UPC or whatever other organization for good fellowship.
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
Jesus fed 3000 and none of them showed up for the biggest event of them all...that's not about the UPC...it can happen in your little indy pendent church too
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Jesus fed 3000 and none of them showed up for the biggest event of them all...that's not about the UPC...it can happen in your little indy pendent church too
Wouldn't it be awesome to really know the amish had the full truth and we lived like them. You are not offending me or proving to me anything I don't feel it is such a bad idea-
You missed my point then...if the validity of standards is based on the assertion we should give our all then WHO decides what giving our all means? And if you are cool with the Amish and are serious about giving YOUR all...why not join then right now? I doubt you will, not because you don't really want to give your all, but because becoming Amish simply is NOT "giving your all to Christ"....
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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