Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
How else can this be understood, but that God did something to Pharaoh to prevent him from letting the people go? There would have been no need to "harden" his heart, if he wouldn't have let them go anyway.
I think that refers to the final act where Pharoah went after Israel. It was all those acts before that that hardened his heart
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
So that's why Israel didn't come back? You mean they would have returned after the sacrifices, if Pharaoh hadn't kept rejecting the requests to go on a three days' journey? I think God knew the real plan (escape forever), all along. In fact, He foretold it to Abraham.
No you were the one that was saying they were gonna come back but that was not God's plan. I was only giving a plausible explation to your assumption
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So why did Moses tell Pharaoh they wanted to offer sacrifices a three days' journey away? Why not tell him they wanted their freedom?
I already told you, i twas a three days journey to where God wanted them to go and worship and serve Him. Pharoah seemed to think this meant their freedom.....otherwise why not just let the go and return if that is what Moses meant and not rather their freedom?
And that was the plan Exo 6:6 Say therefore to the people of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment.
Exo 6:10 So the LORD said to Moses, Exo 6:11 "Go in, tell Pharaoh king of Egypt to let the people of Israel go out of his land." Exo 6:12 But Moses said to the LORD, "Behold, the people of Israel have not listened to me. How then shall Pharaoh listen to me, for I am of uncircumcised lips?"
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If my son asked one evening if he could go to a friend's house to watch a movie, but after the movie he was really planning to spend the night there, leaving that detail out, I'd have called that a lie.
Is your son a slave? Is he not every allowed to leave the house? Does he have guards watching him day and night to prevent him from leaving the house? If he did and then he demanded "Let me leave this place and go to my friends house"
See, once again you are assuming the original request was simply to leave on a vacation and return, nothing in the text says that. Second let say your son comes back then says "now I want to go to my other friends house and play a game" was that a lie because he did not tell you?
What if you were a cruel atheist father and he asks if he can go to church this sunday? You say NO! and all you will get for dinner is a cracker. And then so he runs away to live with other family members that will let him go to church EVERY sunday...was that a lie?
Timmy, what if I told you I think you were a nice person.....but I did not tell you I thought your hair looked dumb..does that make me a liar? Do I need to tell you everything?
He made a request and that request was rejected. Lets assume you are right and the request was for a 3 day vacation and not rather to leave....Just because God's ultimate desire was for Israel to be out of Egypt forever does not make the original request a lie. Thats like saying me asking you for ice cream when what I would rather have is cake is a lie...sure Id rather have it but that does not make my request for ice cream just because Id rather have cake
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
No you were the one that was saying they were gonna come back but that was not God's plan.
I didn't mean that. I meant that was the story that God (through Moses) gave Pharaoh. In fact, He let Moses in on the real plan:
Exodus 3:17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.
18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.
In v 17, God says He will bring them to Canaan, the Promised Land. There's no possibility of going back to Egypt. But in v 18, Moses is to ask Pharaoh for permission to go into the wilderness to offer sacrifice. He clearly meant for Pharaoh to think it was a round trip.
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Pharoah seemed to think this meant their freedom.....otherwise why not just let the go and return if that is what Moses meant and not rather their freedom?
He may have suspected it, seeing through the deception, that's true. Once, he did suggest that they leave their cattle behind (collateral), for example. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a deception!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I understand what you're saying. It's still hard for me to reconcile the severity of God's judgments with His goodness. And with logic, for that matter. He performed the wonders in Egypt to show that He was God, and the prove His power (besides the judgment aspect). If that was part of His reason, and especially regarding the Egyptians themselves, was He expecting them to repent of their ways, and start serving Him? Did the wonders serve their purpose?
Do they today? People can see the wonders of God today and still they walk away.
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Originally Posted by Timmy
I'm not sure how the Egyptians were expected to know that the Israelites' God was the real deal, until it was pretty much too late.
They knew from the beginning of time. Much of what you are saying is a sad reflection of today. I'm not sure how many people in the world today are "expected" to know God is the real deal and when they do realize it , it may be too late. Are they thus somehow automaticly saved?
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Originally Posted by Timmy
First, there was the trick of Aaron's rod turning into a snake, but Pharaoh's magicians copied that one (and many of the plagues, too -- that's pretty weird, right there). Aaron's snake devouring the others was impressive, but, uh, couldn't that just be because Aaron was a better illusionist (from the Egyptians' point of view)? Then with each of the plagues, things got more and more interesting. One might imagine God asking "Do you love me now? No?" WHAM! Another plague. But it wasn't even that fair: He didn't give them a chance to repent. He didn't even give Pharaoh a chance to repent and let the people go. He kept hardening Pharaoh's heart!
Each of these nations and cities that opposed Israel had their own history. Each generation grew up believing what their parents taught them. How could they be expected just to drop the worship of their gods in favor of the Israelites' God? I don't recall the Israelites even trying to evangelize them much, if any. Most often, it was brutally conquer first, ask questions later.
Again, they knew from the beginning of time. How many times has God already placed judgement on them. The ark, sodem and gomora, and they all still returned to their old ways of serving other gods. Even Israel was guilty of the same, they barely were out of Egypt when they created the golden calf, they had just seen a miracle of God in parting the Red sea yet they still turned from Him. And it never says God hardened their hearts. I have often asked that question myself, "What about those who don't know?" what about the atheist who were raised that way and never told about God. What about the Muslims who know nothing but the way they were raised? what about tribes in Africa, in the jungles? Are all of these just automaticaly "saved" on the basis of ignorance of the truth.? If so , you may have an argument. But I don't see it. I see a people from the beginning of time, created by God and taught the truth from the beginning, not once, but twice (when Noah came off the ark, everyone aboard knew the truth, someone had to stray) and yet time and again man has turned to his own gods, and time and again he was punished. Even Israel, why do you think they were slaved in Egypt to begin with?
David sings in the book of Psalms, God is a just God, His judgements are rightous. It is mans pride that would rather find fault with what God judges than accept fault in ourselves.
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
I didn't mean that. I meant that was the story that God (through Moses) gave Pharaoh. In fact, He let Moses in on the real plan:
Exodus 3:17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.
18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.
In v 17, God says He will bring them to Canaan, the Promised Land. There's no possibility of going back to Egypt. But in v 18, Moses is to ask Pharaoh for permission to go into the wilderness to offer sacrifice. He clearly meant for Pharaoh to think it was a round trip.
He may have suspected it, seeing through the deception, that's true. Once, he did suggest that they leave their cattle behind (collateral), for example. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a deception!
Yes you DID mean that. You just said he was deceiving Pharaoh into thinking it was a round trip. My point is there is nothing in what he said that suggests they were coming back. It was not a deception and even if the intention was that they would come back that does not make the original request a deception just because God knows Pharaoh would reject it
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
No you were the one that was saying they were gonna come back but that was not God's plan.
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Originally Posted by Praxeas
Yes you DID mean that. You just said he was deceiving Pharaoh into thinking it was a round trip. My point is there is nothing in what he said that suggests they were coming back. It was not a deception and even if the intention was that they would come back that does not make the original request a deception just because God knows Pharaoh would reject it
I wasn't saying "they were going to come back". I was saying that that was the story Moses was giving Pharaoh. Moses knew they would not. But asking for permission to go three days' journey to offer sacrifices was clearly intended to give Pharaoh the impression that they planned to return. If that were not true, again, why didn't Moses just say it clearly: "We want our freedom. Let us go." Otherwise, it makes no sense to mention the three days' journey, and it makes no sense to discuss with Pharaoh what and who would be going along on this journey. Ex 10:7-10.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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