For those who want to know...RULES at my church!

Originally Posted by Michlow

I just thought this was funny, because this morning I had a JW come into the office and give me a watchtower called "Can you Trust the Bible"

Where I live, there's a JW who regularly leaves their literature in the laundry room. I always place it it the trash can. Happened at the previously place I lived, too.

Originally Posted by The Mrs

Sarge, do you think you could define what an unhealthy church is for us?

Also, what would define a church as 'abusive' as opposed to 'unhealthy'. And where does an 'oppressive' church fit into the equation?

Good questions.

To me, an unhealthy church could be unhealthy due to how it operated or due to their teachings or a combination of both.

As to abusive, the mistreatment of members would happen. So a church could be unhealthy and perhaps not abusive, though I feel the majority would probably fall into both categories.

You could have a church that, for instance, taught directly or indirectly the performance mindset. In other words, the person believes that their standing with God is based day to day upon their performance in some area or lack of it. It's not based upon the Bible, but rather upon works and therefore the person always wonders if they are saved or not. A church like this could be unhealthy and not necessarily abusive.

Now if that same church then shames and belittles that person who messed up on the performance treadmill or does other things to mistreat them, then they would also be abusive.

Here's an article that may help:
ttp://www.barnabasministry.com/recovery-characteristics.html

This one gives a summary from one of Ron Enroth's books:
http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/3658/question.html

There's one group where things can really get bad and I have met and spoken with some former members. They are known as the Boston Movement or ICC (I think those are the initials). Very unhealthy, abusive group.

They placed a discipler over each member and the member had to go to the discipler for approval to do things. The way they taught things, one former member shared how they could make even wanting to eat a meal appear sinful.

I will add, too, that a church could be unhealthy and abusive in an opposite direction. By that I mean that the members, or certain members could have an unhealthy control over the church. Some churches run pastors off and try to make life miserable for the leadership.

And where does an 'oppressive' church fit into the equation?

Sorry- forgot this one. This could fall into either category. The example I gave about the performance treadmill would be oppressive as for the members it would be difficult to live under the weight of never being able to fully measure up, always falling short somehow no matter how hard they tried.

It can also be when leadership exercises authority wrongfully.

Either scenario would be oppressive to those living in it.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Sarge

STS, while some do know better, others are caught up in a wrong mindset and truly believe they are doing what is right. These have no idea the damage they cause at the time.

If we stop to examine it, many of us who were involved in an unhealthy church did things ourselves to others that were wrong because we became a part of the environment. Many who leave not only have the harm they received to deal with, but also what they may have unknowingly done to others, too.

I think that is what helped me more than anything else to forgive all the people involved. The fact that I at my worst was self-righteous, judgemental, legalistic, controlling and just plain pushy. Most especially to my Mom and my husband. And my reasoning was very simple. I loved them, and I didn't want them to go to hell. And I somehow got it into my head, that I had some control over that.

Originally Posted by Michlow

I think that is what helped me more than anything else to forgive all the people involved. The fact that I at my worst was self-righteous, judgemental, legalistic, controlling and just plain pushy. Most especially to my Mom and my husband. And my reasoning was very simple. I loved them, and I didn't want them to go to hell. And I somehow got it into my head, that I had some control over that.

Good feedback, Michlow. There's not a one of us who hasn't somehow hurt another person. We all need forgiveness. It is easier to have compassion on another when you realize that you, too, need it.

The reasoning you gave is the motivating factor for much of spiritual abuse. The motivation is right, but the way it is put into practice is wrong and harms instead of helps.

I think the only reason I am angry at God is because he allows these people to represent him... or the unattainable salvation by picking the "winning lottery numbers" when it comes to millions of different people who claim that THEY speak for him.

It's like walking into a room and there is Jesus standing right there! But then you realize it is a football stadium filled with 50,000 Jesus's... It is so easy, just go to Him!

And, oh, yes! By all means, use scripture to determine which one is the right one... everyone will say that your interpretation of scripture is wrong unless it lines up with what they believe.

Nice system...

Sheltie, the only thing that matters is what the Bible truly says and not someone's private interpretation. Private interpretation usually pulls a passage out of context and also doesn't consider what the "whole" of God's Word teaches on the issue. So in this, while on the surface something may appear biblical, when one looks further into the matter and considers the "whole" of God's Word, it collapses.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Sheltie, the only thing that matters is what the Bible truly says and not someone's private interpretation. Private interpretation usually pulls a passage out of context and also doesn't consider what the "whole" of God's Word teaches on the issue. So in this, while on the surface something may appear biblical, when one looks further into the matter and considers the "whole" of God's Word, it collapses.

Which is why we have to be led by God ourselves....rather than by someone else...that's what faith is. If all we had to do was follow another, there is no place for faith.

Originally Posted by Sarge

STS, while some do know better, others are caught up in a wrong mindset and truly believe they are doing what is right. These have no idea the damage they cause at the time.

If we stop to examine it, many of us who were involved in an unhealthy church did things ourselves to others that were wrong because we became a part of the environment. Many who leave not only have the harm they received to deal with, but also what they may have unknowingly done to others, too.

I know I did...I know I am guilty of hurting others in the name of "religion, holiness". I didn't know what we were doing was wrong persay...but when I finally figured it out, I was not mad at God...

Originally Posted by Sister Truth Seeker

I know I did...I know I am guilty of hurting others in the name of "religion, holiness". I didn't know what we were doing was wrong persay...but when I finally figured it out, I was not mad at God...

However, some do get mad at God. People process what's happened in different ways. Those who feel this way need to realize that God is not the one that harmed them.

This is where there are some who have great difficulty. Some blame God, some cannot fully separate the false version of God they received from who God really is, and some walk away entirely from Christianity (though some also return to God). Unfortunately, what sometimes happens is that in the process of being involved in an unhealthy church, the person becomes wrapped up in the system and messes up their relationship with God and things get really distorted. And sometimes if one is raised in an unhealthy church and that is all they ever knew, they may not even have ever developed a real relationship with God.

I believe it was Michlow that mentioned she may not have walked away from God, but rather the twisted version of God that developed in her mind.

Here is where the most harm from spiritual abuse comes in- is if the person does not ever go forward to developing a genuine relationship with God. When an unhealthy church produces such as this, it is very, very sad. The place where people should be able to come to learn about God and develop a personal walk with Him instead can produce people who reject Him.