Genesis - Who is our image?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Genesis 22:11
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

The angel of the Lord says to Abraham 'thou hast not withheld...thine only son from me'??

22:13
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

22:14
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

22:15
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

22:16
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

The angel blessed him with a promise?? Yes, I see that the angel says 'saith the LORD', but didn't in the verses above.

'Angel' is also defined in the Strong's as 'the theophanic angel'.

There have also been discussions on the previous forums about this topic, which is where some of my info comes from, but looking up specific verses that speak about an angel being the Lord is too time consuming, but perhaps others here can help, since many of them have posted on that topic in the past.

I know there is a passage where an angel is seen, but when the man tells others the story, he says that the Lord told him, not an angel of the Lord...or something to that effect anyway.

Right and this is the case I was speaking of when I said I think the LORD took over an angels body so that the LORD was speaking literally through the angel sort of like a prophet but more personally. With a prophet God gives him the words and the prophet speaks. In this case I kinda think the LORD took over.

One reason is the Sodom incident. Three "men" appeared to Abraham. It says the LORD. Two men left and went to Sodom. They were called angels. Yet one of those men stayed with Abraham and it was said Abraham stood still before the LORD.

Angel means messenger and the term applies to both angelic beings and humans...they were someone giving a message for Yahweh.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Woah wait...where does the bible say God did NOT speak us into existence?

Oh brother!!! You are NOT going to be like Chan and think the Bible has to say something specifically or it didn't happen, right? I mean, the Bible doesn't say that Jesus ever went potty, but if I claim He did it doesn't make me wrong, does it?

On the flip-side, where does the Bible say that God DID speak us into existence?

Huh? Yes if I am to believe God made man with a pair of hands I expect the bible to actually say it

Why, because you can't use the common sense God gave you? I mean, if the Bible doesn't mention Jesus having shoes on when traveling, do you claim He didn't have shoes on?

Prax, this surprises me of you......

...are you saying I should believe God used a pair of hands to make Adam because it doesn't say HE didn't?!?! With that kind of reasoning one might argue God used his feet and prehensile tail. Yes, Im sorry but I have to have some reason to accept that your assertion is true that God used a pair of hands to form Adam....the bible just does not say that is the case. I mean are you seriously asking me that? "Does the bible have to say that God has a mohawk or we don't believe it?"

Uh....it's you that has that attitude with anything I say, not me. And how many times do I have to say or imply that it's my opinion on the matter?? Sheesh....I feel like I'm being interrogated or something......

It does say he wore sandles.

Everytime?

Jesus also was a man. We are talking about God before the first man Adam was even made and you are assuming God had a pair of hands and he got down in the dirt and literally formed man with hands and dirt rather than using his creative supernatural power and just speaking it to happen, like when he said "Let the earth bring forth...."...even if I believed God had a pair of hands back then I would still believe God used the power of His mind/Spirit/Word to cause man to be formed from the ground rather than literally using hands and mud and making man like a potter in literal terms.

You have your opinion and I have mine. No biggie.

Are you a literalist?

This isn't worth a response, really.

No. We have God creating and making man. We have God forming man from the ground and we have God breaking life into man. Man was NOT a living being just upon being formed from the ground. Man was not a living being until God breathed life into that form. That still does not tell me God used a pair of hands to form man from the ground. See....we are not dirt. We are skin and bones and many other things. We are are complex organism. God didn't just push dirt together and used some water to stick. God transformed that into what we are. I defy anyone to use a pair of hands and take dirt or mud or clay and form an actual human body. There was a LOT more going on then just forming a shape. That is what I think is missing here. Image or likeness is not about shape.

I think you are reading WAAAAAAAAAAAY too much into my posts. I believe there is the miraculous part of creation that's part of the process, but fact is, you are made of the dust of the ground, and the Bible says so.

I take that back. It doesn't say 'Prax was made from the dust of the ground', so maybe you aren't.

having an opinion and having a belief are not the same things. Truth, Beliefs, they are based on what the word says, not on what it does not say not to believe.

Having an opinion IS having a belief. If I didn't believe it, it wouldn't be my opinion!

Kinda like, do you believe Pepsi is better than Coke? It's your opinion, but it's also your belief!

Truth and opinion aren't the same thing, but beliefs and opinions don't have to be based on facts, even though they can be. Truth does, however, have to be based on facts and nothing but the facts.

No I don't

Well, I just don't see the commonality in objects, animals and plants......and God. Maybe you do, I guess.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Right and this is the case I was speaking of when I said I think the LORD took over an angels body so that the LORD was speaking literally through the angel sort of like a prophet but more personally. With a prophet God gives him the words and the prophet speaks. In this case I kinda think the LORD took over.

Where does the Bible say that the Lord took over an angel's body?

Oh wait...that's your opinion...but is it your belief?

In any case, I concur.

One reason is the Sodom incident. Three "men" appeared to Abraham. It says the LORD. Two men left and went to Sodom. They were called angels. Yet one of those men stayed with Abraham and it was said Abraham stood still before the LORD.

I think this is what I was referring to that I said would take me too long to find. I was searching using Moses, not Abraham.

Angel means messenger and the term applies to both angelic beings and humans...they were someone giving a message for Yahweh.

I agree on that.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Oh brother!!! You are NOT going to be like Chan and think the Bible has to say something specifically or it didn't happen, right? I mean, the Bible doesn't say that Jesus ever went potty, but if I claim He did it doesn't make me wrong, does it?

Im going to be like any honest intelligent bible believer and base my beliefs on what the bible says. Are you going to be like a wishy washy Charismatic who thinks the Holy Spirit is showing him doctrines that are not in the bible? We are not talking about being human. You really don't see the vast difference between KNOWING Jesus went potty because he is human and saying "God made Adam with a pair of hands and I don't need bible for that"??? Come on! What you are talking about here is apples and oranges. Yes, YES sister, if we are going to say something is true like what you are saying, then I would expect bible. But if you are going to tell me "I think Jesus went potty, because he was human"...we we DO have bible that says Jesus was human....seriously you don't see the difference here in what we are discussing? There is a lot of false doctrine based on "well the bible doesn't say it's not true" or "I don't need bible, I have the Spirit"

On the flip-side, where does the Bible say that God DID speak us into existence?

Im not going to say or assert it does. That's the difference here. See I am not asserting "God spoke us into existence", You said He did it with a pair of hands and Im asking where does it say that? Why does God need a pair of hands when He can just speak and man's body would be formed from the ground?

Why, because you can't use the common sense God gave you?

Excuse me? You want to talk about common sense? I don't want to get nasty here, but least you think I am not using common sense and you are, let's just say I think YOU aren't using common sense. We can get nasty here but I think we should just use scriptures when discussing biblical topics. Jesus going potty (so much for common sense) just is not a biblical discussion.

I mean, if the Bible doesn't mention Jesus having shoes on when traveling, do you claim He didn't have shoes on?

Like I said, so much for common sense. I really thought you were more intelligent than this. We are discussing what the bible says and how things happened. Common sense is enough to know Jesus wore sandels....common sense is NOT enough to know God sprouted hands just so he could form man from the ground when All God had to do was speak it into happening. You are really getting confused here big time. You are confusing a discussion on what the bible says and what happened in biblical circumstances with something entirely different. I've never needed bible to know Jesus probably wore sandles, yet we are not discussing a bible event that even deals with Jesus wearing sandles...that is what gets me about such an absurd example and your quip about my common sense.

Prax, this surprises me of you......

I thought you were more intelligent than this.....

Uh....it's you that has that attitude with anything I say, not me.

Not at all! I did not claim or assert "God used hands" I ASKED you to show me where it does say that. Im ONLY pointing out God is not a feeble being that needs hands to do anything nor is there any reason to believe he DID use hands. You then make a "common sense" quip about Jesus, but Jesus was HUMAN. So you are telling me common sense means God has hands and that it's common sense God did not speak Adam into forming from the ground because common sense tells us God has hands and would have prefered to do it that way? Yes, unless you have bible on that I see no reason to say it is a true statement NOR does is it an issue of common sense. Truth is based on what the bible says. You can't say "Well it does not say he didn't use hands, so he just have" that is an argument from silence

And how many times do I have to say or imply that it's my opinion on the matter?? Sheesh....I feel like I'm being interrogated or something......

you need only say it once, however you should have good reason to have such an opinion. However you did not merely say it was your opinion, you asserted it. You asserted God formed man with a pair of hands. You did not start out merely saying "I think maybe God has a pair of hands and etc etc etc"...you want me to go back and quote you? You made it sound like Genesis really did say "And God formed man from the ground with a pair of hands"...then when I ask you to show me you get upset.

When someone asserts something is true I think they should be able to give some reasons why and all I am doing is asking

You have your opinion and I have mine. No biggie.

My opinions here I don't just say things like "God formed man from the ground with his own hands"....I'd say "I think God formed man from the ground with His own hands because..." and show some scriptures. Truth and doctrine really is based on what the bible says. And in particular when you fail to state views in the form of an opinion and rather state them in the form of a belief and in the form of an assertion, then yes I DO expect scriptures to back it up. No that is not something just common with Chancellor. It's how the Christian faith came to be, word by word, verse by verse

I think you are reading WAAAAAAAAAAAY too much into my posts. I believe there is the miraculous part of creation that's part of the process, but fact is, you are made of the dust of the ground, and the Bible says so.

No it says man was formed OUT of the dust. It never said we are made of dust. He also caused the vegitation to grow out of the ground but veggies are not dirt.

I take that back. It doesn't say 'Prax was made from the dust of the ground', so maybe you aren't.

Im not made of the the ground. I am made of skin, calcium, blood, carbon etc etc. Adam's body was made FROM the dirt but it was not made OF dirt.

Having an opinion IS having a belief. If I didn't believe it, it wouldn't be my opinion!

I see....

I guess by belief I was meaning truth. True Doctrine, not simply believing something to be true like a kid believes in Santa Claus.

My opinions are just mine
o·pin·ion Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

See my BELIEFS are based on what the word says and quite frankly what God's own word to us says is NOT insufficient.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

When we get to a point that we don't need bible for the things we believe then we have reached a dangerous place.

Kinda like, do you believe Pepsi is better than Coke? It's your opinion, but it's also your belief!

Im talking about beliefs. Religious beliefs, not personal preferences

Truth and opinion aren't the same thing, but beliefs and opinions don't have to be based on facts, even though they can be. Truth does, however, have to be based on facts and nothing but the facts.

If I am going to say "God formed Adam by using a pair of hands" then that is an assertion and when someone makes that kind of assertion I am going to ask if they have bible for that. Now if someone says "I think God formed Adam by using a pair of hands" then I am going to ask why they think that.

If you want to say "no reason, just sounds like a cool idea to me" well fine. But we are not talking about coke and pepsi...we are talking about God and a biblical event/issue. Whether or not Jesus wore sandles so far is not an issue. If you want to say "I think Jesus wore sandles" fine...I can give good reasons why he probably wore sandles coming both from the bible and outside the bible. If you want to say "I think his sandles were blue, but that is just my opinion" go for it...If you want to say "I think when he walked on water he was wearing air jordans and that might have helped keep him from sinking" then I am going to ask you to give some good biblical reasons why.

Well, I just don't see the commonality in objects, animals and plants......and God. Maybe you do, I guess.

I really have no idea what you are trying to say or do here. I never asserted there was a commonality in objects, animals, plants and God....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Where does the Bible say that the Lord took over an angel's body?

Oh wait...that's your opinion...but is it your belief?

Notice I said "I think"...I never said "God took over an angel"...I never said "it says here God took over an angels body'. I said "I think"...I also gave reasons WHY I think that. I spoke of what the word angels means. I gave a verse as an example