History of Tithes in the Church

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by shag

How do you pronounce the 2nd-3rd syllable in, Coksiw?

That user name is not even close to my real name. It was a random selection of letters. I shall not be liable for any injury or damage caused to your tongue as you attempt to pronounce it .

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

How would you apply this verse?

Isa 65:4 NKJV - (4) Who sit among the graves, And spend the night in the tombs; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of abominable things is [in] their vessels;

Sorry for taking so long to respond.

Not understanding what point you're trying to make, however for the sake of conversation, I'll respond with the following:

In order for complete context I'll start with the previous three verses.

Isa 65:1-3
1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

The first verse prophetically is talking about the gentiles.
There second through the verse you quoted is talking to house of Israel.

Hopefully that's the response you were looking for.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Just looking to get your take on this.

Malachi 3:8-11
v.8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
v.9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
v.10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
v.11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

Do any of these verses apply to us today? Is there a way we can rob God by not putting our tithe and offering in the storehouses? Im not talking about monetary coin alone, in your study on this subject, how can a we as the church today apply these verses of scripture?

I’m going to give you hint. If you really want to know what Malachi is all about, read the whole book and follow along with who it is written to. You will find that the message is much different than just the focus of three verses.

Generally, the book is a scathing rebuke of the Levites.

Specifically about tithes? It is doing nothing more than reinforcing the Mosaic law. Which to put in simple terms is that:

1: If you own land that God has given you, (the promised land) and IF that land produces crops, flocks, and herds, then you are to tithe on that produce.

It is a very common misconception that all of the Israelites tithed. They didn’t. Unless they owned land and the land was a gift from God, AND the land produced according to the parameters above.

Almost without exception, the tithe was food. When you review the WHOLE book of Malachi, (it takes less than ten minutes) pay attention when it begins to talk about the table of the Lord, then becomes more specific about food. It is leading up to the tithe, which was nearly exclusively food.

In fact, the commandment concerning tithe was that they that were qualified would eat the tithe, where they would eat it and who was entitled to eat it.

In the event that an unclean animal was tithed that was not permitted to be eaten, God gave instructions for those occasions as well.

Malachi is entirely consistent with the law of tithing. The law of tithing is nearly unrecognizable from what is taught and believed today. In that vein, the book of Malachi is applicable to today. It is an excellent example of religious leadership abusing the law of tithing.

Another hint: whose obligation was it to bring the tithe to the storehouse of the temple?

Malachi is an excellent book to truly do a deeper dive Bible study on, because most of laity is afraid of it. They have been deceived as to the true meaning of Malachi so they avoid it as a rule.

That’s my take.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Tithing from the increase of the land in Israel was a commandment in the OT. Not eating swine meat was also a command (don't eat unclean animals).

In the context of the law of Moses, disobeying such commandments was disobeying God. Therefore, you will find prophecies like that bringing up accusations of disobedience, because all those prophecies are in the context of the Moses' covenants.


Now, are those passage applicable? Absolutely, but not in the "tithe" and "offering" system, but in the reflection of what God cares about. Tithing and offering was intended to support the Levites, orphans, widows, etc...

You can apply it this way: if you have resources to help brothers and sisters around you in need, and you withhold those resources, you are figuratively "robing" God, because God expects righteousness, fruit of repentance, in you, and you are not doing it. If there are opportunities to support teachers and preachers in your congregation, or just that your congregation has needs to keep running (bills, rents, activity funding, etc...), and you have the ability to participate, and you are withholding your resources, you are doing the same.

But what most people that hold the tithing position want to hear is something else: the only "legit" application they find in Moses' tithing is the 10% of all the things.

Thanks for replying, but I see it differently. I think the various prophecies such as you've given from Isaiah 65 are not merely confined to the so-called "law of Moses", but have a universal, that is to say, still binding effect as part of the overall Torah of God.

For example, I wouldn't see anyone with a morbid interest in hanging out in graveyards among the tombstones as any kind of pillar or paragon of spiritual wisdom or righteousness any more than I would see someone who fills their maw with swine's flesh or drinks broth made from the cadavers of miscellaneous abominations as such, either.

[coksiw]

I found this article interesting

https://spectrummagazine.org/views/2...emanding-tithe

It apparently caused a commotion among seventh-day adventists.

[coksiw]

Before 1873, the doctrine of tithing in America wasn't that popular. People supported their ministers the best they could, with freewill offerings. That it is in part the work of the puritans, pilgrims, quakers, and other groups in American strong rejection of the doctrine.

However, the doctrine of tithing began to be "rediscovered".

1873, Alexander Hogshead, published a book called, "The Gospel self-supporting", advocating for a minimum of 10% giving, saying it was an eternal principle. At the same time, A.W. Miller published his work also saying that the early church fathers supported tithing and we needed to practice it. Finally, in 1875, Speer also published a book saying tithing is also a progressive revelation that we all must practice.

But what really caused the fire to start in the USA was Thomas "Layman" Kane in 1876[1]. He was a Presbyterian businessman. He wrote a pamphlet about tithing, and sent it to 75% of the evangelical ministers in the USA for free. He bombarded them with the unsolicited material for years.
His pamphlets were effective enough to cause a "rediscovery" of tithing, and a movement in the clergy to impose it on the congregations.

When tithing hit the Pentecostal movement, it came from ministers already persuaded from the work of these people. And main argument to introduce it to the congregations was: "We don't really need the money, but we don't want you to miss a blessing (prosperity) that tithing brings". So it was a prosperity argument, and in America, who doesn't want to prosper and be rich?

Basically, the theological "foundation" was the work of Hogshead and Miller, and the promoting hand was Thomas.

Finally, in 1906, Henry Lansdell wrote a two volume work called "The Sacred Tenth" that does a very lengthy historical investigation trying to show that 1/10 was a common tax or expected contribution in several cultures, and coming to the conclusion that it must have been some sort of divine number from the times right after the flood. I have a better explanation: ancient time practicality, we got 10 fingers, which makes it easier to count what you are due to the King/Priest. In fact, the Bible in 1Sam 8:15-17, tithing is presented negatively, like something a King would do over Israel, demonstrating that this was just a practical number for the ancient cultures.

Interesting findings.


1. https://www.tithereview.com/blog/pic...aught-millions

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Before 1873, the doctrine of tithing in America wasn't that popular. People supported their ministers the best they could, with freewill offerings. That it is in part the work of the puritans, pilgrims, quakers, and other groups in American strong rejection of the doctrine.

However, the doctrine of tithing began to be "rediscovered".

1873, Alexander Hogshead, published a book called, "The Gospel self-supporting", advocating for a minimum of 10% giving, saying it was an eternal principle. At the same time, A.W. Miller published his work also saying that the early church fathers supported tithing and we needed to practice it. Finally, in 1875, Speer also published a book saying tithing is also a progressive revelation that we all must practice.

But what really caused the fire to start in the USA was Thomas "Layman" Kane in 1876[1]. He was a Presbyterian businessman. He wrote a pamphlet about tithing, and sent it to 75% of the evangelical ministers in the USA for free. He bombarded them with the unsolicited material for years.
His pamphlets were effective enough to cause a "rediscovery" of tithing, and a movement in the clergy to impose it on the congregations.

When tithing hit the Pentecostal movement, it came from ministers already persuaded from the work of these people. And main argument to introduce it to the congregations was: "We don't really need the money, but we don't want you to miss a blessing (prosperity) that tithing brings". So it was a prosperity argument, and in America, who doesn't want to prosper and be rich?

Basically, the theological "foundation" was the work of Hogshead and Miller, and the promoting hand was Thomas.

Finally, in 1906, Henry Lansdell wrote a two volume work called "The Sacred Tenth" that does a very lengthy historical investigation trying to show that 1/10 was a common tax or expected contribution in several cultures, and coming to the conclusion that it must have been some sort of divine number from the times right after the flood. I have a better explanation: ancient time practicality, we got 10 fingers, which makes it easier to count what you are due to the King/Priest. In fact, the Bible in 1Sam 8:15-17, tithing is presented negatively, like something a King would do over Israel, demonstrating that this was just a practical number for the ancient cultures.

Interesting findings.


1. https://www.tithereview.com/blog/pic...aught-millions

This is interesting. I think though that the source is earlier than this. I think at this time (until further research proves otherwise) that the tithing in America was begun by Joseph Smith in the LDS church (to the extent of tithes being rendered in money or property other than agricultural goods). Earlier (in colonial America) it was actually a levy on the church members and was collected in agricultural products (specifically tobacco as an example) and was charged according to the number, gender, and racial makeup (basically the intrinsic value) of slaves possessed by the farmers.

It is my opinion, based on my own research at this point, that the Pentecostal churches adopted tithing from the Mormons and really elevated it to, in some cases, a salvation issue. Then some have declared tithes to be the sole property of the pastor. No scripture seems to be safe from the reach of pastors’ ability to twist or downright contradict in the name of the god of mammon.

Jesus said:

Matt.6

[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Pentecostal preachers are determined to prove Jesus wrong. In fact they have perfected the hypocrisy of worshiping one (mammon) to glorify the other (God). I guess it may be a oneness theology based on a twoness doctrine.

Here is an article about Joseph Smith and tithing. Interestingly enough, although this article doesn’t mention it, I have seen in previous research that Joseph Smith credited his tithe doctrine to an angelic vision. At least he didn’t (to my knowledge) profess that it was derived from the Bible.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/...thing?lang=eng

[corvet786c]

Tithing in the NT came from the Catholic church at the council of macon in 525AD, research it and look it up. In the catholic encyclopedia.

Jesus called it LAW in Matt and so Did Paul in Hebrews. If it were an eternal principal would'nt Jesus or paul resort back to it then?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by corvet786c

Tithing in the NT came from the Catholic church at the council of macon in 525AD, research it and look it up. In the catholic encyclopedia.

Jesus called it LAW in Matt and so Did Paul in Hebrews. If it were an eternal principal would'nt Jesus or paul resort back to it then?

Generally what you say is true, more or less. Reinstatement of tithing actually saw very little success until somewhere around the ninth century AD. Reinstatement being the key word here. Even then it was agricultural and not monetary. The monetary tithe was much later. Because a tithe of money was nothing less than scandalous and directly contradicted the law of Moses that it was supposedly based on.

Search for the Tithe Commutation Act. Better yet let me post a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_Act_1836

There is a lot of information here.

[corvet786c]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Generally what you say is true, more or less. Reinstatement of tithing actually saw very little success until somewhere around the ninth century AD. Reinstatement being the key word here. Even then it was agricultural and not monetary. The monetary tithe was much later. Because a tithe of money was nothing less than scandalous and directly contradicted the law of Moses that it was supposedly based on.

Search for the Tithe Commutation Act. Better yet let me post a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_Act_1836

There is a lot of information here.

Yeap Sounds good, I also want to point out that the Matthews bible of 1537 which the KJV came from. In Malachi chap 3 is says should a man use falsehood and deceit.... Instead of Robbing God.....then it says In Tithes plural and heave offerings. There fore you are cursed with Penury. When I saw this translation it knocked my socks off, I couldn't believe it. This to me prove what we have been saying all along.

The Matthews bible of 1537 is in old english

https://www.bibles-online.net/

What also opened my eyes was when Jesus called tithing LAW and did not resort it to another time period. Paul also called Tithing LAW in Heb 7.

Im just sharing some of my insights that might help others. Thanks Chris