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  #401  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:18 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

p185 (chapter 6) he opens with "J. N. Andrews in his pretended History of the Sabbath...."

He then sets about to "correct" certain claims made about Constantine and pope Sylvester. Is this what you were referring to?
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  #402  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:22 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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p185 (chapter 6) he opens with "J. N. Andrews in his pretended History of the Sabbath...."

He then sets about to "correct" certain claims made about Constantine and pope Sylvester. Is this what you were referring to?
His "correction" is based on his claim the Waldensians were separate from the Roman Church but always observed Sunday, so therefore Sunday-keeping is not the Papal mark of the beast. He quotes various historians about the Waldensians to buttress his claims contra Andrews.
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  #403  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:54 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

He makes the same argument in regard to Novatians, Donatists, Paulicians, and other groups.
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  #404  
Old 12-07-2019, 04:35 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Yes that is some of what I noticed.

There seem to be places where Andrews payed loose with quotations.
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  #405  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:32 AM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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i actually was interested on his objections on the specific early church writer citations, where he used “pretended”.

When Christians were sounder doctrinally, they would accept sabbath permanence arguments, due to the Decalogue authority. Thus, if they rejected the creation 7th-day sabbath, they by necessity went to transference. Arthur Pink is one of many examples.

Their arguments are far more significant than the general sabbath opposition arguments on this forum, and writings today by evangelicals and fundamentalists are generally low quality.

Thus my references tend to be 1700 (or earlier) to the 1800s and a small number of 1900s.
I disagree that transference is weightier than the arguments presented here that favour Col 2:16-17 as saying the sabbath day was a shadow, for permanence is far more correctly understood as the observance continuing in the spiritual manner rather than the natural manner of keeping a natural day.
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Last edited by mfblume; 12-07-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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  #406  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:37 AM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Seemed to have made a typo in my previous response to the following post, so I'll fix my response and include it below.


Quote:
Since God never said anything about bestiality or honouring your parents until Moses' day, were those things not forbidden/commanded until Moses' ime? And are we therefore free to practice bestiality or to dishounour our parents today?
That reaosning fails.

We need records of specific words that are not referring to the things that morality would instinctively tell us about. Committing beastiality or dishonouring your parents is not something God needs to write down for us, for we already know that is immoral by sheer conscience. But no one would ever naturally think that the seventh day must be kept without work.

Romans 2:26.. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

No pagan or heathen would know of the seventh day like they would prohibition against beastialilty or disrespect. It's ceremony they do not know about.
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  #407  
Old 12-07-2019, 05:59 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Yes that is some of what I noticed.

There seem to be places where Andrews payed loose with quotations.
The thing is, everybody except the catholics claim the Waldensians as a single movement, and as identical to their own faith and praxis. Preble seems to think the Albigensians, Paulicians, and Cathars were all Waldensians, who believed as he does. Several writers (COG7th Day, Armstrong-era WWCOG, etc) claim the exact opposite, that all these groups were sabbatarian law-keeping COG people, some Oneness Pentecostals claim these were all Oneness Pentecostals etc.

I haven't identified any factual errors by Andrews, but then I never actually read his History all the way through. I have found some COG7th Day writers to be a bit more thorough. I've never really been a fan of SDA authors except Bacchiocchi. Uriah Smith's work on Daniel though was pretty interesting.
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Last edited by Esaias; 12-07-2019 at 06:25 PM.
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  #408  
Old 12-07-2019, 06:06 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Seemed to have made a typo in my previous response to the following post, so I'll fix my response and include it below.



That reaosning fails.

We need records of specific words that are not referring to the things that morality would instinctively tell us about. Committing beastiality or dishonouring your parents is not something God needs to write down for us, for we already know that is immoral by sheer conscience. But no one would ever naturally think that the seventh day must be kept without work.

Romans 2:26.. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

No pagan or heathen would know of the seventh day like they would prohibition against beastialilty or disrespect. It's ceremony they do not know about.
Man will not discover his duty to God and his neighbour strictly by "conscience", which is why God gave His Word. Man is not to be trusted with determining right and wrong, it requires Divine revelation because the heart of man is desperately wicked. To suggest God didn't specify an obligation because it is already known to everyone is to suggest the 5th commandment and most others were originally irrelevent and superfluous. Moreover, it assumes the error that the NT Scriptures are a replacement legislation. Which basically reduces Christianity to a type of legalism (just NT legalism instead of OT legalism).

Also, you are misapplying Romans 2 to heathen idolaters. The uncircumcised in Romans 2 are gentile CHRISTIANS WHO KEEP THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW. They show the work of the law written in their hearts, a reference to Jeremiah 31:33. This is not referring to heathens whose "conscience" directs their morality, but to Christians in the new covenant even if they are not circumcised physically.
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Last edited by Esaias; 12-07-2019 at 06:11 PM.
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  #409  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:17 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

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I disagree that transference is weightier than the arguments presented here that favour Col 2:16-17 as saying the sabbath day was a shadow, for permanence is far more correctly understood as the observance continuing in the spiritual manner rather than the natural manner of keeping a natural day.
It almost sounds as if you are mistaking natural for physical, and spiritual for non physical...

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1 Corinthians:10:3

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians:10:4

The food and drink were physical. The water was undoubtedly regular, natural H2O. But they are called spiritual because the food and drink were provided by God. The Sabbath day is a physical day (whatever that actually means) but it was provided by God, and tgerefore is a spiritual day. Keeping the Sabbath day holy in honour of Christ the Creator, and Lord of the Sabbath, is spiritual, not natural. It is in fact the carnal man who is not obedient to God and His law, whereas the spiritual man obeys God and His law:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans:8:4

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans:8:7
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Last edited by Esaias; 12-07-2019 at 10:29 PM.
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  #410  
Old 12-08-2019, 06:56 PM
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Re: 7th Day Sabbath not for New Testament believer

Quote:
Quote:
I disagree that transference is weightier than the arguments presented here that favour Col 2:16-17 as saying the sabbath day was a shadow, for permanence is far more correctly understood as the observance continuing in the spiritual manner rather than the natural manner of keeping a natural day.
It almost sounds as if you are mistaking natural for physical, and spiritual for non physical...

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1 Corinthians:10:3

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians:10:4

The food and drink were physical. The water was undoubtedly regular, natural H2O. But they are called spiritual because the food and drink were provided by God. The Sabbath day is a physical day (whatever that actually means) but it was provided by God, and tgerefore is a spiritual day. Keeping the Sabbath day holy in honour of Christ the Creator, and Lord of the Sabbath, is spiritual, not natural. It is in fact the carnal man who is not obedient to God and His law, whereas the spiritual man obeys God and His law:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans:8:4

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans:8:7
As you will have noticed, I use those passages myself to show that the resurrection is of a physical nature, though it's very spiritual.

Many natural and spiritual things are often both very physical, but not all. This is the problem that non-physical resurrectionists don’t realize. Their error is in thinking everything spiritual must be non-physical, but that is only the case sometimes. They think natural means physical. A natural mind is not physical. But a natural temple is.

But there are instances when spiritual does refer to something non-physical when the natural counterpart is physical.

For example, there was a natural temple and city in the forms of the temple in Jerusalem and old Jerusalem. But the spiritual counterparts of both are not physical. The temple of the Holy Ghost is said to be the church. In some instances, the believer’s individual body is considered the temple of the Holy Ghost (as in 1 Cor 6:19), but in others, it is not the physical body but the body of believers…

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We each are lively stones, spiritually speaking, because a stone is not literally a body. And human beings are partly physical, but not completely. We become lively stones, comprised of spirit, soul and body, and are built into one grand spiritual house.

New Jerusalem is not a physical city whereas old Jerusalem was. Everywhere that believers exist is where the New Jerusalem exists. We’ve already come to this New city, and you and I are in it though we’re not in the same physical location. It reminds me of the place where Jesus said we’d worship… in spirit and in truth, which are not physical locations.

Likewise, we’ve come to Mount Zion, which is not a physical mountain, whereas the natural Mount Zion is a physical mountain.

This is the same that I see with Sabbath. It was a physical day, seeing as the physical sun set and set again surrounding a time that we calculate on that movement, that physical celestial relationship with the physical earth. Physical causes made this day. Therefore, the day is a physical day.

A person physically rested from physical labour on the seventh day. The rest with in which we rest in the spiritual sabbath is not from physical labour, but from the striving in our hearts to deal with all of our problems in our own means, and instead going to the throne upon which Christ sat, when He sat down and rested from His work of the cross, providing us grace to help in the time of need.

You saw some of this when you realized that the image of Christ’s priesthood and mediatorial role was foreshadowed by the sabbath day. And that entire spiritual provision of all of this is by no means natural nor physical.

The counterpart of the physical sabbath, as I see scripture teaching, is not a physical day caused by the physical position of the sun in relation to the earth and the movement of the rotation and revolving of the earth around it. The spiritual day of rest is the period of time calculated by the spiritual, or superNATURAL, causes of Christ’s seating as King and Priest when He supplied a spiritual non-physical rest. And it occurs over time that’s far the beyond 24-hour solar day.

So, some things that are spiritual are not physical.
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