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  #11  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:05 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

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Originally Posted by JamesGlen View Post
Meaning that’s exactly what the baptiser say/speaks?

At what point do they see Cornelius and John the B disciples as being born again, if it is upon DECISION?

Or do you know?

Or is it justification by faith, something separate and preceding the born-again experience, that they believe in?
All I really know is what I have heard spoken by at least one AoG Pastor who was baptizing people.
(This is a local Pastor who I know personally; He also has relatives who are UPC)
And I also know that he believes that when you make a decision for Jesus you are saved.
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2019, 06:57 AM
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

The Assemblies of God denomination (or the AOG for short) became strictly Trinitarian way back in 1916. There was a conference held, wherein many pastors ordained in the fellowship brought up the Biblical fact that all New Testament baptisms were performed solely in the name of Jesus. Along with this, they also saw the revelation of the Oneness of God, and presented their view to the board.

Long story short, it was rejected.

The AOG didn't decide to go the Oneness route. Those that saw the revelation and wanted to move forward in it, left and eventually developed their own movements, among them the United Pentecostal Church and the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World. Besides the AOG, the Church of God (Cleveland) and the Pentecostal Holiness Church, retained a Trinitarian theology of God, and the fellowship among the Oneness and Trinitarian groups ceased.

Now, I remember talking to an AOG pastor on Christian Forums. He personally believed baptism was correctly performed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but at the same time, he didn't see Oneness. He was adamant about the Trinity, but somehow saw the revelation of the necessity of the name at baptism. I was confused. He didn't seem to be the arguing kind, but his mind was pretty settled, so our conversation slowly deteriorated.

Most AOG people, especially those in the ministry, will justify that Matthew 28:19 is the so-called "Trinitarian baptismal formula", and since it was stated by Christ, the authority is done in Jesus' name. The name doesn't have to be said, however. Those people that baptized in Jesus' name in the Acts of the Apostles did so either by special authority, permission, or as a temporary method until such "truth" (i.e. the "Trinitarian formula") rightfully came back to the fold.

It's a mess.

The AOG, as a whole, has a strong view of the Trinity. They generally hold it dear to their basic doctrine. Of course, there are some whose views might be slightly more open-minded, and some might even secretly lend to the Oneness perspective, but aren't openly saying such in fear of loosing something that's more widely accepted as mainstream Protestantism.
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I am Apostolic
I believe in One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
I believe in water baptism by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
I believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
I believe in living a holiness lifestyle, inwardly and outwardly, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Last edited by Bro Flame; 08-22-2019 at 07:02 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2019, 11:33 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

Not sure what denomination Free Chapel and Jentezen Franklin are (IIRC, some kind of Baptist). Last night, I saw a couple minutes of a live stream on FB. It was Free Chapel's baptism night. With all his UPC and Oneness connections, I was interested in how he baptized.

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit."
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  #14  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:08 PM
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Not sure what denomination Free Chapel and Jentezen Franklin are (IIRC, some kind of Baptist). Last night, I saw a couple minutes of a live stream on FB. It was Free Chapel's baptism night. With all his UPC and Oneness connections, I was interested in how he baptized.

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit."
Some kind of holiness Pentecostal background. Idk how you get Baptist from that.
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:34 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Some kind of holiness Pentecostal background. Idk how you get Baptist from that.
Interesting. I don't remember where/who, but I was told at one time he was independent Baptist. He was referred to as a Bapticostal.

Thanks for the thread bumps.
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  #16  
Old 08-23-2019, 08:47 AM
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Not sure what denomination Free Chapel and Jentezen Franklin are (IIRC, some kind of Baptist). Last night, I saw a couple minutes of a live stream on FB. It was Free Chapel's baptism night. With all his UPC and Oneness connections, I was interested in how he baptized.

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit."
I remember watching an YouTube video once of a countrified river-type baptism, and this was how the pastor baptized the people.

He said "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit" though.
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I am Apostolic
I believe in One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
I believe in water baptism by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
I believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
I believe in living a holiness lifestyle, inwardly and outwardly, without which no man shall see the Lord.
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  #17  
Old 08-23-2019, 08:56 AM
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Interesting. I don't remember where/who, but I was told at one time he was independent Baptist. He was referred to as a Bapticostal.

Thanks for the thread bumps.
As a kid, we went to a church that self-identified as Bapticostal.
__________________
I am Apostolic
I believe in One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
I believe in water baptism by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
I believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
I believe in living a holiness lifestyle, inwardly and outwardly, without which no man shall see the Lord.
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2019, 12:59 AM
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

What is the significance of the phrase ‘in the name of’? In view of our knowledge that the terms it translates in both the Greek εἰς τὸ ὄνομα and the Hebrew-Aramaic (לְשׁוֹם) לְשֵׁם were well known formulae, it is surely a mistake not to acknowledge the a priori likelihood that the common use is intended in our passage.

The basic meaning of the Hebrew לְשֵׁם is ‘with respect to’; it can denote both the basis and purpose of that which is named. For example, in Mt. 10:41, to receive a prophet ‘in the name of a prophet’ (εἰς ὄνομα προφήτου) is to welcome him because he is a prophet; while in the more famous Mt. 18:20, the two or three who meet ‘in my name’ (εἰς τὸ ἐμὸν ὄνομα) do so in the interests of the cause of Jesus.

(i) Heathen slaves on their entry into a Jewish house were compelled to receive a baptism לְשֵׁם שִׁפחוּת, ‘in the name of slavery’, i.e. to become slaves; similarly on their being set free they were to be immersed לְשֵׁם שִׁחְרוּר, ‘in the name of freedom’. Baptism thus sets a man in that relationship which one has in view in the performance of it

To this end baptism was a fitting conclusion to the gospel proclamation; for baptism in the Name of the Lord Jesus connoted not alone a cleansing from sin but an expression of dissociation from the rejectors of the Messiah and a means of association with the Messiah and His people. In that historical context a more appropriate expression and means of turning to God could hardly be devised.

(i) As has been mentioned, baptism in Acts is always administered ‘in the name of Jesus Christ’ or ‘in the name of the Lord Jesus’ (2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5). In our discussion on the meaning of εἰς τὸ ὄνομα, it was pointed out that in the last resort there is not much difference between Heitmüller’s view, that ‘in the name of’ signified ‘dedication to … with the use of the name’, and that of Strack-Billerbeck, that it meant, ‘with respect to, for the benefit of, for the sake of’, though the latter was preferred as being consonant with the Semitic background of the command to baptize and as having greater elasticity of application. The same applies to its use in Acts, especially as it generally appears in passages with a Semitic background. From Acts 22:16 it would seem that the name of Jesus was invoked by the baptismal candidate; it is also likely that the name was called over the candidate by the baptizer. Leenhardt not unreasonably concluded from this that we have to do with a rite which draws its whole meaning from the person of Christ and the relationship established with Him. The believer was baptized ‘for the sake of’ the Lord Jesus and made over to Him.

Baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus, whatever else it came to imply, was in the earliest time a baptism ‘for the sake of’ the Lord Jesus and therefore in submission to Him as Lord and King.

(iii) The name of the Lord Jesus is called over the baptized. He therefore dedicates himself to the Lord and is appropriated for Him;

Source:Baptism in the New Testament



ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι at 1 Βασ... 25:5; 3 Βασ... 20(21):8; ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι at 1 Βασ... 25:9. The common LXX formula ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι is unusual in classical Greek, → 244; it is an attempt to render the Heb. בְּשֵׁם literally and exactly. It is in a way like the instrumental use of the preposition ἐν, which is attested in secular Greek from the classical period. But it is to be regarded as real translation Greek, corresponding more to Semitic linguistic sense.
“To call by name” in Ex. 31:2 is rendered ἀνακέκλημαι ἐξ ὀνόματος, cf. Ex. 35:30; Nu. 1:17. “By their name” is ἐξ ὀνομάτων αὐτῶν (בִּשְׁמֹתָם) in Nu. 3:17, cf. 32:42: ἐκ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ (== בִּשְׁמוֹ). The acc. occurs in Is. 43:1: ἐκάλεσά σε τὸ ὄνομά σου, cf. 45:3.

>>>Most keenly debated is the use of בִּשֵׁם in the sense of “in the name” or “on the commission.” We believed it possible to find instances of this in a secular sense (→ 259), and for בְּשֵׁם יהוה, too, it may be accepted in connection with דִּבֶּר and נִבָּא. One of the most important of the relevant passages here is the promise of Yahweh to Moses in Dt. 18:18 f.: “I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them (דִּבֶּר) all that I shall command him.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto his (my) words which he shall speak in my name (בִּשְׁמִי), I will require it of him.” Here the rendering “on my commission” seems to be demanded by the context, and is the most natural interpretation. The matter is more complicated when the same formula is used, not of the message of the prophets of Yahweh, but of the utterances, indeed, the lying speeches, of false prophets. Thus we read on in Dt. 18:20: “But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, shall die.” Again, we read in Jer. 14:14: “The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not” (cf. 14:15; 23:25;

29:9). In these verses בִּשְׁמִי certainly cannot denote a genuine commissioning of these prophets by Yahweh, for this is expressly repudiated (Jer. 14:14; 29:9; Dt. 18:20). It thus seems that “naming my name” is the only possibility. Nevertheless, it might be that בִּשְׁמִי is, as it were, in quotation marks (“ostensibly in my name and on my commission”), and if this is found a little too bold, and “with appeal to my name” is preferred, even this goes rather beyond mere invocation and approximates to an interpretation in which the name is an alternative for Yahweh Himself. In Ex. 5:22 f. (cf. v. 1), where Moses negotiates with Pharaoh in Yahweh’s name for the liberation of the Israelites, בְּשִׁמְךָ, referring to Yahweh, again means “on thy commission.”

Thus the formula בְּשֵׁם יהוה, controlled by the various possible meanings of the preposition בְּ and the שֵׁם concept, is capable of various senses. It often signifies mention or utterance of the name Yahweh, then action on His commission or with appeal to His name, and finally it is used in parallelism with Yahweh, either as an alternative or for a hypostatised שֵׁם (Ps. 54:1).

>>The most general meaning of ἐν (τῷ) ὀνόματι is “with invocation of” (→ 276). He who says or does something in the name of someone appeals to this one, claims his authority. This gives us various nuances acc. to context. It may mean “with calling upon” or “with proclamation of the name” (→ 278), or “on the commission” (→ 273; 278), or “in fulfilment of the will” (→ 273; 276), or “in obedience” (→ 278). But ἐν ὀνόματι can also mean “in the sphere of power” (→ 272; 274), “in the power” (→ 277), “in the presence” (→ 277). 1 Pt. 4:14 is difficult: εἰ ὀνειδίζεσθε ἐν ὀνόματι Χριστοῦ (→ 240). Perhaps הַמָּשִׁיחַ לְמַעַן שֵׁם lies behind it. Mk. 9:41 and Jn. 14:26 are ultimately to be understood in this way too.

Source:Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

Sonoma, name
βαπτίζεσθαι ἐν τῷ ὀν. Ἰ. Χ. be baptized or have oneself baptized while naming the name of Jesus Christ Ac 2:38 v.l.; 10:48. At a baptism ἐν ὀν. χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ AcPl Ha 3, 32. αἰτεῖν τὸν πατέρα ἐν τῷ ὀν. μου (=Ἰησοῦ) ask the Father, using my name J 15:16; cp. 14:13, 14; 16:24, 26. W. the latter pass. belongs vs. 23 (ὁ πατὴρ) δώσει ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ ὀν. μου (the Father) will give you, when you mention my name. τὸ πνεῦμα ὃ πέμψει ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀν. μου the Spirit, whom the Father will send when my name is used 14:26. To thank God ἐν ὀν. Ἰησοῦ Χρ. while naming the name of Jesus Christ Eph 5:20. ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀν. Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ that when the name of Jesus is mentioned every knee should bow Phil 2:10. χαίρετε, υἱοί, ἐν ὀν. κυρίου greetings, my sons, as we call on the Lord’s name 1:1. ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀν. κυρίου whoever comes, naming the Lord’s name (in order thereby to give evidence of being a Christian)

BDAG

Epi,in
⑰ marker in idiom of authorization, w. dat.: the formula ἐ. τῷ ὀνοματί τινος, in the name of someone, used w. many verbs (Just., D. 39, 6 w. γίνεσθαι, otherw. ἐ. ὀνόματος, e.g. A I, 61, 13; w. διὰ τοῦ ὀ. and in oaths κατὰ τοῦ ὀ. A II, 6, 6, D. 30, 3; 85, 2.—Ath. 23, 1 ἐ. ὀνόματι εἰδώλων.—ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι LXX; JosAs 9:1), focuses on the authorizing function of the one named in the gen. (cp. WHeitmüller [‘Im Namen Jesu’ 1903, 13ff], ‘in connection with, or by the use of, i.e. naming, or calling out, or calling upon the name’ [88]): βαπτίζειν Ac 2:38. δέχεσθαί τινα Mt 18:5; Mk 9:37; Lk 9:48. διδάσκειν Ac 4:18; 5:28. δύναμιν ποιεῖν Mk 9:39. ἐκβάλλειν δαιμόνια Lk 9:49 v.l. ἔρχεσθαι Mt 24:5; Mk 13:6; Lk 21:8. κηρύσσειν 24:47. λαλεῖν Ac 4:17; 5:40. Semantically divergent from the preceding, but formulaically analogous, is καλεῖν τινα ἐ. τῷ ὀν. τινος name someone after someone (2 Esdr 17:63) Lk 1:59.—ὄνομα 1dγג.—M-M.

BDAG
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


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  #19  
Old 08-27-2019, 04:38 AM
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Interesting. I don't remember where/who, but I was told at one time he was independent Baptist. He was referred to as a Bapticostal.

Thanks for the thread bumps.
His background is Church of God. My daughter in Law was Baptized in the Holy Ghost at his church.
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2019, 09:14 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: AOG on Water baptism

Praxeus mentioned in his last post, "Baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus, whatever else it came to imply, was in the earliest time a baptism ‘for the sake of’ the Lord Jesus and therefore in submission to Him as Lord and King."


Bingo!! And I feel this is where we as Jesus name baptizers miss the mark. We make it into an issue of God's "real name", citing the singular "name" of Matthew 28:19. But the instructions given by Christ in verse 19 are predicated on the truth in verse 18 of his pending exaltation. Thus, in verse 19, Jesus is commanding them to baptize per and into the authority that Father was about to give to the Son of Man, and that the disciples would receive at Holy Ghost baptism. In Acts 2, Peter realized that Christ's words of Matthew 28:18 had been fulfilled. Thus, he invoked the name of the one who had received all authority (the Son of Man) instead of the name of the one from where that authority had originated (God, even the Father). Everything we do in the name of Jesus is predicated on his exaltation.

Last edited by Originalist; 08-27-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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