Seconds of Pre Embryonic Life of Jesus Christ?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Sean

May I ask, is Islam having a fundamental problem with Christianity over the concept of "Incarnation"?

Do they(you) not find it in the Christian Bible, yet see it in Christian commentary?

Incarnation in what aspect? In the context of Jesus I would more lean towards earlier "manifestation"

The main issue I see between Islam and Christianity is the concept of the deity of the man Jesus in the context of the life of Jesus and what Jesus said about himself and God.

The fundamental problem with this is that Islam believes and teaches that this violates the "ONE" rule, and point out that "ONE" is universal between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. It is a huge chasm. I can see why this is taught and most of my questions, as you can note, are not necessarily related to what place Jesus has in Christianity but where do the gospels and other teachings place him vs. what do you teach.

So a lot of discussion has taken place here and most of the verses that lean one way or the other have been placed side by side. If anything, even though still unclear, at least there is a rough understanding of "ONE" as it is interpreted.

[Sean]

Incarnation means becoming something from something else, or God became human.

This is not Biblical at all.


Fact is, God manifested Himself as the Father, God manifested Himself INSIDE the independent son, and God manifested Himself as the Holy Ghost.


Oneness teaches God manifested Himself AS the son.

Trinity teaches God the Son manifested Himself as a Son.(Eternal Son).



Oneness teaches God the son, while trin teaches God the Son.



The Bible teaches God INSIDE the son.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Sean

Incarnation means becoming something from something else, or God became human.

This is not Biblical at all.


Fact is, God manifested Himself as the Father, God manifested Himself INSIDE the independent son, and God manifested Himself as the Holy Ghost.


Oneness teaches God manifested Himself AS the son.

Trinity teaches God the Son manifested Himself as a Son.(Eternal Son).



Oneness teaches God the son, while trin teaches God the Son.



The Bible teaches God INSIDE the son.

The bible references Jesus asking if God had forsaken him. Why? Does the spirit come and go then?

The bible references the holy spirit as comforter, also sent. By God. Not God Himself either.

Just saying.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What do you think about John 20:28?

Speaking of Hebrews ch 1, what about verses 10-12, which are a quotation of Psalm 102:25-27, yet are said to have been spoken concerning Jesus?

What about John ch 1 and the logos being not only with God but "was God" and "was made flesh"?

Romans 14:10-12, where appearing before the judgment seat of Christ is giving account of oneself to God, because Jehovah has sworn every knee will bow to Him (that is, to Jehovah), which is a statement from Isaiah 45:23?

Romans 10:9-13 where salvation is tied to verbally confessing Jesus because whoever calls on Jehovah will be saved?

Yes, the Scriptures are clear, Jesus is the Son of God, the one anointed by God, the one who lived perfectly in the will of God, the one loved of the Father and sent by the Father.

And yet, things that apply only to God are applied to this man. This man is conflated with Jehovah numerous times. This man is called God with us (Immanuel) and God manifest in the flesh, the visible image of the invisible God, the bodily indwelling of the Fullness of the Deity, the First and Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father, the one who if you see you have seen God, if you know this man you know God. He is called the eternal life of God that the apostles literally touched with their hands, which was manifested. John calls Him the "true God", Thomas claimed Him as his Lord and God, Paul calls Him Kurios (Lord) in contexts that only apply to Jehovah Himself.

So we as Christians must accept BOTH sets of statements as valid and true, even if we have a hard time explaining HOW they can both be true.

John 20 is a really bad chapter to use to make this point Tex. Read it again. The whole thing. Then decide which verses mean what:

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

OR

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

OR

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Hebrews 1 might as well come directly from the Quran. It essentially defines Jesus as a Messenger.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Romans 14: Every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Separates them. Not the only place that happens.

(Side note: Better show this to that preacher dude who taught us down in the debate room that he is going to be exempt from judgement. Nobody is.)

7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Romans 10 is not taught on this site. That isn't the salvation formula! Good grief man - different debate! However all kidding aside really read the verse.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

God raised God? That is the question here Tex. Not yet answered.

Hope I didn't skip any. Been accused of that. If so, it was unintentional. I have no further editorial, only what the words say.

[Walks_in_islam]

I did forget revelations. Read it. God is speaking to John through a messenger. Very clearly, before the whole puppet show starts, the stage very distinctly sets God in His Place, Jesus in His place, and they are very carefully separated. One then must deliberately attribute words to Jesus that Chapter 1 verse one says God passed to John by "giving" them to Jesus. See the problem with this?

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Greetings to the Seven Churches

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

John 20 is a really bad chapter to use to make this point Tex. Read it again. The whole thing. Then decide which verses mean what:

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

OR

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

OR

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

But I do not read the selected passages as being "or". That is, I do not see them as standing against one another. They are all equally true. Hence what I said earlier about working within the boundaries of the statements of Scripture on both issues: Christ's humanness, and yet His being addressed as God. And notice that Thomas very clearly and unambiguously addressed Jesus as his Lord AND GOD. So whatever distinctions between God and Jesus might be made in that chapter, Thomas concluded that Jesus is nevertheless his Lord AND GOD. He was able to perceive both as true - the humanity and sonship of Christ on the one hand, and His Lordship and Deity on the other hand.

Hebrews 1 might as well come directly from the Quran. It essentially defines Jesus as a Messenger.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Here is what I was referring to in that chapter:

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
(Hebrews 1:10-12 KJV)

The context of this quotation from Psalm 102 is things said concerning or to "the Son", showing Jesus is superior to the angels. Yet the Psalm clearly refers to Jehovah. Thus, the apostle takes Scripture relating to God and applies it to Jesus. And thus, in the understanding of the original Christians Jesus - while clearly being distinctly human, the Son of God - is nevertheless somehow also God.

Romans 14: Every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Separates them. Not the only place that happens.

(Side note: Better show this to that preacher who taught us down in the debate room that he is going to be exempt from judgement. Nobody is.)

7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

But notice:

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
(Romans 14:10-12 KJV

)

We are not to judge fellow believers because we must all (each of us) appear before the judgment seat or the "court" of Christ. This signifies Christ is the judge before whom we must appear. BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN (in Isaiah 45:23) "As I live sayeth Jehovah every knee will bow TO ME, and every tongues shall confess TO GOD." We must appear before Christ for judgment because Jehovah says that to HIMSELF every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess (give account) to GOD. So then everyone will give account of himself to God, which is fulfilled by everyone giving account of himself before the judgment throne of Christ. Christ and God are BOTH said to be the one before whom we must all appear and give account of ourselves to.

And let's look at that quotation from the prophet Isaiah, in its original context:

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
(Isaiah 45:21-25 KJV)

Upon what basis would Paul have taken this passage with its solemn declaration of the absolute monotheistic unity of God, and its solemn declaration that all will confess to Him, and then say that BECAUSE of this we shall all appear before Christ as our Judge and give an account of ourselves to HIM? And then conclude "so then we will all give account of ourselves to God"? It literally is a giant non sequitur unless Paul believed that Christ is somehow Jehovah.

Romans 10 is not taught on this site. That isn't the salvation formula. Different debate - however really read the verse.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The passage I referred to is this:

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Romans 10:8-13 KJV)

Yes, it plainly says God raised Jesus from the dead (more on that in a moment), but it also plainly says that we can confess Jesus with our mouth and be saved BECAUSE it is written in the prophets "whoever shall call upon the name of JEHOVAH shall be saved." Here is the source quotation Paul referred to:

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
(Joel 2:32 KJV)

We are to verbally confess (ie "call upon") JESUS because it is written "whoever calls upon Jehovah will be saved"???? Peter also used that same quotation from the prophet Joel in Acts chapter 2, and concluded that what people needed to do was repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. It is obvious (to me, at least) that the apostles were taking a scripture about calling upon the name of GOD and saying this is fulfilled when one calls upon the Lord Jesus, which cannot make any sense unless they believed that somehow this Jesus is the Jehovah of the prophets of old.

God raised God? That is the question here Tex.

Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
(John 2:18-22 KJV)

Jesus said that if the Jews killed Him, HE would raise Himself from the dead? And when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered He had made this claim, and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. So yes God raised Jesus from the dead. Yet, Jesus himself claimed that HE HIMSELF would raise HIMSELF from the dead. How does a dead man raise Himself from the dead? And let's not forget this:

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
(John 10:17-18 KJV)

Jesus, the man, is claiming that God gave Him the authority to not only lay down His life (and die) but to take His life back up again (ie raise himself from the dead). This clearly establishes the idea that the original Christians believed Jesus not only died voluntarily, but raised Himself from the dead. And yet, they also went around claiming God had raised Him from the dead. So who raised whom? It is both: Jesus raised Himself from the dead, God raised Him from the dead. These scriptures show the duality of the issue, that Christ, a man, the Son of God, was raised from the dead by God, and yet at the same time Christ raised Himself from the dead (!). Christ was raised from the dead by God, and therefore we are to confess Christ and be saved, because it is written whoever calls upon the name of GOD shall be saved. Again and again we see BOTH types of statements, as well as a conflation of the two. I do not find any possible conclusion except that the original Christians believed Jesus was both a man, and yet also God, at the same time.

I have noticed that people like to focus on the Scriptures which indicate Jesus is a man, the Son of God, while minimizing or avoiding the ones that clearly equate Him with God. I think we have to take both at face value, and work WITHIN the confines those two sets of statements provide for us.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I did forget revelations. Read it. God is speaking to John through a messenger. Very clearly, before the whole puppet show starts, the stage very distinctly sets God in His Place, Jesus in His place, and they are very carefully separated. One then must deliberately attribute words to Jesus that Chapter 1 verse one says God passed to John by "giving" them to Jesus. See the problem with this?

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Greetings to the Seven Churches

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Why did you stop there? Let's continue reading:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
(Revelation 1:8-20 KJV)

When Jesus stated in the first part "I am the first and the last" He was not merely delivering a message from God, speaking in the first person, as the prophets of old were used to doing. Notice He re-affirms that He is the first and the last, the one who was alive, and WHO DIED, and YET IS AGAIN ALIVE FOREVERMORE. This clearly establishes that the "first and the last" is JESUS who lived, died, and lived again. Yet, the first and the last is said to be the Almighty.

Who is the first and last, beginning and ending?

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
(Isaiah 44:6 KJV)

There cannot be more than one first and last, otherwise neither is first and neither is last - unless they are ONE. Jesus is the first and last, and yet Jehovah is the first and last. So, once again, the two are identified with one another. The son of God is spoken of in terms that can only be applied to God himself. Thus, once again, Jesus is both God, and the Son of God, according to the testimony of the original apostles.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The bible references Jesus asking if God had forsaken him. Why? Does the spirit come and go then?

The bible references the holy spirit as comforter, also sent. By God. Not God Himself either.

Just saying.

Jesus was not lying in the slightest.

The Father(which is a Holy Spirit), left(forsook) him, as per Jesus' own words.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Why did you stop there? Let's continue reading:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
(Revelation 1:8-20 KJV)

When Jesus stated in the first part "I am the first and the last" He was not merely delivering a message from God, speaking in the first person, as the prophets of old were used to doing. Notice He re-affirms that He is the first and the last, the one who was alive, and WHO DIED, and YET IS AGAIN ALIVE FOREVERMORE. This clearly establishes that the "first and the last" is JESUS who lived, died, and lived again. Yet, the first and the last is said to be the Almighty.

Who is the first and last, beginning and ending?

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
(Isaiah 44:6 KJV)

There cannot be more than one first and last, otherwise neither is first and neither is last - unless they are ONE. Jesus is the first and last, and yet Jehovah is the first and last. So, once again, the two are identified with one another. The son of God is spoken of in terms that can only be applied to God himself. Thus, once again, Jesus is both God, and the Son of God, according to the testimony of the original apostles.

Remember, the first/last, Alpha/Omega also said this in the same book....



12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.





Right, the independent man Christ Jesus had the Col 2:9 effect on him, and since almighty God inside of him did not take away his independence,
God speaks through him.

[Sean]

Fact is, oneness does not believe that every bit of God indwells Jesus, but only the "qualities" of God.

They strip Col 2:9 down, along with the trins, to keep God outside of Jesus.

If they actually believed the verse as the Apostles wrote it, then they would be forced to believe my way.