Seconds of Pre Embryonic Life of Jesus Christ?

[Sean]

The question is, is the distinction a split personality of God or an individual person(glorified man) full of God(all the Godhead, bodily).

Either way, Jesus is God and savior.

[Sean]

If Jesus was not an individual man apart from God on earth, then God just put on a glorified "puppet show", with Jesus as the "puppet" character of God Himself.(whenever he spoke to the Father, it was just an act, and not genuine in content)

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Titus 2:13 calls Jesus our God and Saviour.

2 Peter 1:1 calls Jesus our God and Saviour.

Romans 14:10-12 says we must appear before the judgment seat of Christ BECAUSE "it is written" that every knee will bow to YHVH and every tongue will confess to God, and "so then" everybody will give account of themselves to God. Thus, Christ and God and YHVH are being used interchangeably.

John 1:1 says the Logos was God, and v 14 says the Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us, and that we (the apostles, that is) beheld His glory, the glory AS OF the only-begotten of the Father.

1 Timothy 3:16 says the great mystery of piety is that God was manifest in the flesh, etc.

Acts 20:28 says the church was purchased with God's blood.

Revelation 1 speaks of Jesus as the first and last, alpha and omega, beginning and ending, and the Almighty. First and last is a Hebraism referring to YHVH (Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12).

There are more, of course, but the point is the Bible speaks of Jesus as a man, the son of David, the Son of God, the mediator between God and men, the High Priest, one who received power and glory from God, etc., AS WELL AS speaking of Jesus as God, YHVH/Jehovah, the Lord (in the Old Testament sense), etc.

The Bible speaks of God being manifested in the flesh, the Logos/Word/Dabar of Jehovah being made flesh, of Christ being the visible image of the invisible God, the brightness of God's glory, the express image of God's person (engraving of God's substance, being, hupostasis), the one in whom all the fulness of the deity dwells bodily, etc.

So, yes, there is distinction: man and God, Son and Father, Priest and Deity, etc. But there is also unity, the two are referred to as if they were one being. So, we accept both classes of statements as true: Jesus is a man, the Son of God, etc. Yet, He is also God, the Almighty. We accept that the Bible teaches God revealed or manifested Himself in the flesh, as Jesus Christ.

As for explaining the mechanical details of that which the Bible calls a "great mystery", we probably ought to be careful trying to explain things beyond the Biblical data, otherwise we may wind up saying things the Bible never said or intended.

Titus 2:13King James Version (KJV) Doesn't say God our savior, it says God (and) our Savior

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Romans 14 says every knee shall bow to me, but every tongue shall confess to God. They are not used interchangeably, they are again deliberately separated.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Acts 20:21 says:

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

God manifested Himself many ways. Cloud. Pillar of fire. Burning bush. He manifested and de-manifested. Did he manifest himself in Jesus then de-manifest? So who was the Jesus that the gospels say died?

Rev 1 was broken down word by word in the past, with great exhaustion. Rev 1 is the words of a messenger referring to God who sent him. Read it carefully, come back, we will discuss it.

Not as clear as you are saying Tex.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Titus 2:13King James Version (KJV)

It's pretty clear in the Greek.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It's pretty clear in the Greek.

You know me better than that. I check them all. The literal translation. Reference. Cross reference.
The place they are carefully separated are too numerous to count.
Equating the two or interchanging the two does not add up. It never has. God always has a place, Jesus has a place beside Him but that place beside God alway defers to God.
John 1 for example keeps getting grabbed like a life preserver but would it be intellectually more honest to interpret it within the context of the rest of the book of John?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You know me better than that. I check them all. The literal translation. Reference. Cross reference.
The place they are carefully separated are too numerous to count.
Equating the two or interchanging the two does not add up. It never has. God always has a place, Jesus has a place beside Him but that place beside God alway defers to God.
John 1 for example keeps getting grabbed like a life preserver but would it be intellectually more honest to interpret it within the context of the rest of the book of John?

The Greek literally says the appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It says what it says. What we make of it is subject to lots of things that go beyond the text.

[Sean]

......which "Greek" LITERALLY cancels out the meaning of this verse....



Titus 2:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

[Sean]

....which cancels out this verse....



1 Timothy 2:5King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;




etc, etc, etc.....

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Greek literally says the appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It says what it says. What we make of it is subject to lots of things that go beyond the text.

I read the literal. I always do. How cool is it that every translation is in one place? Shame the KJV got trimmed again awhile back. Were those books not value added or what was that about?

It says the same thing? Your interpretation, emphasize AND as "is" is certainly valid. De-empasize as "add to" and it says something else. That is the something else that matches what Jesus himself said about himself so many times.
SO: The question remains. Who is Jesus who died? This thread, all of it really, is about that question. It remains unanswered.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I read the literal. I always do. How cool is it that every translation is in one place? Shame the KJV got trimmed again awhile back. Were those books not value added or what was that about?

It says the same thing? Your interpretation, emphasize AND as "is" is certainly valid. De-empasize as "add to" and it says something else. That is the something else that matches what Jesus himself said about himself so many times.
SO: The question remains. Who is Jesus who died? This thread, all of it really, is about that question. It remains unanswered.

Jesus is the Son of God who died and rose again. I do not understand why you say the question remains unanswered?

If as the Scriptures declare Jesus is both a man, and God manifest in flesh, then (to me at least) it is plain and obvious. God became a man and died, and rose again. Not that God became a man and somehow ceased to be God (that is a rational impossibility, like God making a boulder too heavy for even Him to move), but that God manifested Himself or made Himself known via the one we know as Jesus Christ.

Jesus claimed to have come from heaven, yet the same Gospel accounts record Him as being born of Mary. So how did He come from heaven? Obviously, He came from heaven in the sense that His origin was by a miraculous act of Divine power, in which the Word was made flesh. The Word was that by which all things were made, it is the "dabar" or "logos" of God, ie God's self expression or self-revelation. It is also the wisdom of God (by which God made all things, see Proverbs 3:13-20) which is why Paul speaks of Christ as the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) and also as the one by whom God made everything (Hebrews 1:2 and Colossians 1:15-19).

And further, the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was made flesh. So God's wisdom, His Divine Plan, His self-revelation, was made flesh. And thus, the Word was God, but is now made flesh in and as Jesus Christ.

And that is why Jesus Christ, the man, the Son of God, is also said to be God, because He is God manifest in the flesh, the visible image of the invisible God.

The epistle to the Hebrews has an interesting statement:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Hebrews 1:1-3)

That phrase, "express image of His person", reads thus in the Greek:

χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ

The word "character" means an engraving, a mark or figure or likeness stamped or engraved or burnished into a medium. Christ is said to be engraving of God's hupostasis, which means the substantial quality or nature, the "substance" or underlying reality of a thing. So the underlying reality or essential substance or substantial quality or nature of God was engraved or stamped into a visible, perceptible medium, which would be the humanity or human nature, and thus as it says again in Colossians 2:9 all the fulness of the Deity dwells in Him (Christ) bodily.

God stamped Himself in human nature and lived the life of Christ as a perfect display of the character, nature, and will of God.

Again, the data is sparse on exactly HOW this all takes place, the metaphysics is not fully explained. And I doubt if any of us could possibly understand any exact explanation anyway even if one were given. So Paul calls it "the great mystery" of true religion.

And we should not be surprised that some things are a "great mystery". How boring would God be if everything could be easily figured out on an internet forum?