More on Skirts

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

I think the overall idea is why follow only one verse out of chapter 22 and not all of them ?

Since the law of Moses is fulfilled, why follow any of it ?

Because as Paul wrote to Timothy...

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

While we are not bound by the Law of Moses, the eternal principles and wisdom contained therein are very profitable for our wellbeing and spiritual growth.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Maybe you need to read those verses more carefully.

6 If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the young:
7 But thou shalt in any wise let the dam go, and take the young to thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days.

Nope, never done that.

11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

I'm good on that one, too.

Perhaps you need reading glasses?

[good samaritan]

Idolatry is a sin of course, but I don't see where De 22:5 associates idolatry with a woman not wearing male garments and visa versa. We can make up some context out of thin air, but we cannot trust in a context that is not presented in the scripture itself. I like to read about history and culture in ancient days, but if the scripture does not give the context we cannot insert things from history and say that is what the verse is really meaning. When I read De 22:5, it is very simple, God don't want me to wear a womans clothes and he don't want women wearing mens clothes. The question is can culture just take a garment of clothing that has always been male attire and put a female label on it and say it is now ok for women.

Prior to 1962 sodomy was a felony in the US punishable by a lengthy term of imprisonment (accodrding to wikipedia). That being said, this nation has lost their minds concerning male and female. I personally feel like the confusion in the role of father and mother in homes since the turn of the 20th century has much to do with homosexuality and transgenderism in our country today.

Whether you realize it or not, small compromises lead to much harm, espeacially over generations. It is the little foxes that spoil the vines.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

I think the overall idea is why follow only one verse out of chapter 22 and not all of them ?

Since the law of Moses is fulfilled, why follow any of it ?

Scott, I'm so sorry. When did you start to lose your mind?

Scott, which of these verses were of no real importance to salvation?

Which are abrogated by the New Testament?


Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is ABOMINATION.

Leviticus 20:13

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an ABOMINATION: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deuteronomy 22:5

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are
ABOMINATION unto the LORD thy God.

Proverbs 6:16-19

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an ABOMINATION unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Proverbs 11:20

They that are of a froward heart are ABOMINATION to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight.

Proverbs 12:22

Lying lips are ABOMINATION to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Proverbs 15:26

The thoughts of the wicked are an ABOMINATION to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.


Proverbs 15:8

The sacrifice of the wicked is an ABOMINATION to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Proverbs 16:5

Every one that is proud in heart is an ABOMINATION to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Proverbs 17:15

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are ABOMINATION to the LORD.

Proverbs 20:10

Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike ABOMINATION to the LORD.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be ABOMINATION.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Because as Paul wrote to Timothy...

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

While we are not bound by the Law of Moses, the eternal principles and wisdom contained therein are very profitable for our wellbeing and spiritual growth.

You jokers wouldn't know the law of Moses if it was dropped on your head with Bernie Sander's foot attached.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Idolatry is a sin of course, but I don't see where De 22:5 associates idolatry with a woman not wearing male garments and visa versa. We can make up some context out of thin air, but we cannot trust in a context that is not presented in the scripture itself. I like to read about history and culture in ancient days, but if the scripture does not give the context we cannot insert things from history and say that is what the verse is really meaning. When I read De 22:5, it is very simple, God don't want me to wear a womans clothes and he don't want women wearing mens clothes. The question is can culture just take a garment of clothing that has always been male attire and put a female label on it and say it is now ok for women.

I totally agree. While the scholars, historians, and archeologists etc. can give us some sense of the cultural context at a given time, the verse itself references nothing involving idolatry. My angle takes what scholars say into consideration, and sees this as a very general command prohibiting cross-dressing of any kind, for any reason, idolatry included.

Prior to 1962 sodomy was a felony in the US punishable by a lengthy term of imprisonment (accodrding to wikipedia). That being said, this nation has lost their minds concerning male and female. I personally feel like the confusion in the role of father and mother in homes since the turn of the 20th century has much to do with homosexuality and transgenderism in our country today.

I wouldn't want the civil government prosecuting people for anything they choose to do in private (gay or straight) unless it endangers the life, liberty, or property of another. However, it does show how the American consciousness has evolved. We went from outlawing a thing to essentially praising it. That's a drastic change. It really shows how far we've drifted.

Historically speaking, fathers worked the fields or traveled doing business and mothers would tend the house. These roles were rather solid. There was still a lot of hanky-panky going on. In some ways, society was far more quiet about affairs, abuse, incest, etc. I don't want to over romanticize the past. And yes, homosexuality was present. It was just kept very hush-hush. One of the things I've discovered is that back in the day boys were allowed to be boys. Being a boy, being interested in girls, women, etc. was considered normal. It was part of a boy's development. However, today, almost everything is so feminized it almost seems like any male behavior, inclination, interest, or attitude is shamed. If my son was caught peeping through a neighbor's fence at the neighbor's daughter sun bathing, and I ran him into the house, but laughed with a friend saying, "Well, boys will be boys.", they'd act like I endorsed rape culture or something. In every sitcom on television the dad is portrayed as a big doofus (as in the show, Home Improvement) who couldn't find his way out of a paper bag. Half the show is trying to fix how dad tried to address the crisis. As the boys grow older in the show (for example in the show, Modern Family) they become goofy idiots like dad. It's a campaign against males, especially white males. I've had to repeatedly remind my kids that my word is law, and no, mom isn't going to fix anything you don't like. However, on the show women, girls, and even gay people are depicted as level headed, funny, witty, compassionate, etc. It's no wonder little boys grow up idolizing women and seeing femininity and homosexuality as "cool". If a man loses his cool and raises his voice, society acts like he's a wild animal who just "lost it". Dude, it's just raising one's voice. Get over it. If a man chooses to have a swimsuit poster down in his workshop, get over it. If a man enjoys fishing, camping, hunting, hiking, and the great outdoors, get over it. If he's into birdwatching, get him counseling. lol No, just joking. Seriously, we've become a society that makes it feel like being a man is somehow... wrong. Even in some churches (thank God, not all) we have boys wearing skinny jean style suits, pink and pastel shirts, slick metro haircuts, and darkened eyebrows, and reddened lips (I've still not figured out why or how the boys are making their lips look so freakin' red, it almost looks like lipstick). One church I was in had an obviously feminine music minister who talked gay, mannered his hands like he was gay, and he'd prance around dancing while leading the choir like some woman. When I asked if he was gay or had been delivered from being gay, people acted like I was weird. C'mon, it's obvious that the dude is acting tooty-fruity, I was just wanting to know what was up. Evidently, he was married and had a lovely bombshell of a wife. I hope I'm wrong, but I still have my doubts. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years we hear he left her for another man and everyone will act like it came out of nowhere. But, my point is, his effeminate manner was embraced. There's a war against masculinity. And I think that contributes a lot to boys growing up and trying the waters of homosexuality. What little boy wants to grow up to be a man, with the way media and society views men???

Now, I know there's probably more to being gay than environmental and social influences. I'm just saying, it should be an honor to be a man. And what constitutes manhood should be respected just as much as we honor and respect womanhood.

Whether you realize it or not, small compromises lead to much harm, espeacially over generations. It is the little foxes that spoil the vines.

So very true.

Sorry for my rant above. I've just seen this garbage so many times it gets me going.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You jokers wouldn't know the law of Moses if it was dropped on your head with Bernie Sander's foot attached.

So, do you disagree that the OT (including the Law) is profitable for doctrine, or reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?

Because my point was that while we're not bound by it as the Hebrews were, it is still of great value to guide us in our understanding.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I totally agree. While the scholars, historians, and archeologists etc. can give us some sense of the cultural context at a given time, the verse itself references nothing involving idolatry. My angle takes what scholars say into consideration, and sees this as a very general command prohibiting cross-dressing of any kind, for any reason, idolatry included.



I wouldn't want the civil government prosecuting people for anything they choose to do in private (gay or straight) unless it endangers the life, liberty, or property of another. However, it does show how the American consciousness has evolved. We went from outlawing a thing to essentially praising it. That's a drastic change. It really shows how far we've drifted.

Historically speaking, fathers worked the fields or traveled doing business and mothers would tend the house. These roles were rather solid. There was still a lot of hanky-panky going on. In some ways, society was far more quiet about affairs, abuse, incest, etc. I don't want to over romanticize the past. And yes, homosexuality was present. It was just kept very hush-hush. One of the things I've discovered is that back in the day boys were allowed to be boys. Being a boy, being interested in girls, women, etc. was considered normal. It was part of a boy's development. However, today, almost everything is so feminized it almost seems like any male behavior, inclination, interest, or attitude is shamed. If my son was caught peeping through a neighbor's fence at the neighbor's daughter sun bathing, and I ran him into the house, but laughed with a friend saying, "Well, boys will be boys.", they'd act like I endorsed rape culture or something. In every sitcom on television the dad is portrayed as a big doofus (as in the show, Home Improvement) who couldn't find his way out of a paper bag. Half the show is trying to fix how dad tried to address the crisis. As the boys grow older in the show (for example in the show, Modern Family) they become goofy idiots like dad. It's a campaign against males, especially white males. I've had to repeatedly remind my kids that my word is law, and no, mom isn't going to fix anything you don't like. However, on the show women, girls, and even gay people are depicted as level headed, funny, witty, compassionate, etc. It's no wonder little boys grow up idolizing women and seeing femininity and homosexuality as "cool". If a man loses his cool and raises his voice, society acts like he's a wild animal who just "lost it". Dude, it's just raising one's voice. Get over it. If a man chooses to have a swimsuit poster down in his workshop, get over it. If a man enjoys fishing, camping, hunting, hiking, and the great outdoors, get over it. If he's into birdwatching, get him counseling. lol No, just joking. Seriously, we've become a society that makes it feel like being a man is somehow... wrong. Even in some churches (thank God, not all) we have boys wearing skinny jean style suits, pink and pastel shirts, slick metro haircuts, and darkened eyebrows, and reddened lips (I've still not figured out why or how the boys are making their lips look so freakin' red, it almost looks like lipstick). One church I was in had an obviously feminine music minister who talked gay, mannered his hands like he was gay, and he'd prance around dancing while leading the choir like some woman. When I asked if he was gay or had been delivered from being gay, people acted like I was weird. C'mon, it's obvious that the dude is acting tooty-fruity, I was just wanting to know what was up. Evidently, he was married and had a lovely bombshell of a wife. I hope I'm wrong, but I still have my doubts. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years we hear he left her for another man and everyone will act like it came out of nowhere. But, my point is, his effeminate manner was embraced. There's a war against masculinity. And I think that contributes a lot to boys growing up and trying the waters of homosexuality. What little boy wants to grow up to be a man, with the way media and society views men???

Now, I know there's probably more to being gay than environmental and social influences. I'm just saying, it should be an honor to be a man. And what constitutes manhood should be respected just as much as we honor and respect womanhood.



So very true.

Sorry for my rant above. I've just seen this garbage so many times it gets me going.

Sodomy does affect others. It is a cancer to society. The word use to be Sodomy, but is now refered to as homosexuality. We have given scientific terms to making it seem normal. Homosexuality is exploited all over in our country and we're being pushed legally to accepting this perversion. Even an atheist should be offended at sodomy. Our biological makeup tells us that sodomy is wrong.

Yet people say what other people do in private hurts no one else. This is not in private. When homosexuals marry and adopt children does that not affect others? If there where laws in place, people would still be involved in sodomy, but it would at least be kept private.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Sodomy does affect others. It is a cancer to society. The word use to be Sodomy, but is now refered to as homosexuality.

Let's say that a gay or lesbian couple moves in down the block from me. Let's say they get married. I don't know them. I might never even speak to them. How does that effect me? And that opens up another can of worms, what about all the other "sins" taking place throughout the entire neighborhood? Unless a persons behavior actually endangers my life, my liberty, or my property, is it my business? In addition, how does my behavior with my wife in private affect them?

We have given scientific terms to making it seem normal. Homosexuality is exploited all over in our country and we're being pushed legally to accepting this perversion.

Hey, we're Christians. Nations and empires have imposed laws against us for over 2,000 years. Those nations and empires are long gone, we're still here. Don't get all worked up over the worldlings and their "legalities". We are not of this world. Just obey God and follow the Spirit.

Even an atheist should be offended at sodomy. Our biological makeup tells us that sodomy is wrong.

Why should I care what a "fool" (an atheist) thinks or doesn't think?

Yet people say what other people do in private hurts no one else. This is not in private. When homosexuals marry and adopt children does that not affect others? If there where laws in place, people would still be involved in sodomy, but it would at least be kept private.

We would need to regard it (sexuality) as a private issue. In most cases, we'd never recognize a gay person if we met them. Yes, there are the flaming agitators, but it is our agitation that keeps them going. I look at them like children throwing a temper tantrum. I ignore them and move along. Soon, it's like they shut up. There's an ancient proverb (I don't remember the origin) that states, what we oppose we empower. For example, imagine if when gays originally wanted to marry we just disinterestedly said, "Okay. Sure. Good luck." At that time, society would have seen it as a train wreck. It would have been something to just shake our heads at. Most gays wouldn't have even wanted to get "married". There wouldn't have been any protests, activists, etc. And they certainly wouldn't have been able to play the martyr card. It would have most likely come and gone in popularity, even among the gay community. Our answer to their request to marry should have been, "I'll pray for you." Instead, through our political opposition and their political determination, we now have a culture war.

Don't you think it's a creepy idea for the government to police the sex lives of citizens? I do. I'm not gay. But I think it is a creepy idea to have a government passing laws that are based on what we do with our significant others behind closed doors.

What if... now just humor me... what if the right-wing focus groups have us all worked up over this... ruining our day... making us scared, etc... when really... what will be will be. We should just focus on following Jesus. The work us up to get us to vote the way they want us to and to donate money to their political activism. Frankly, they profit quite a bit off of getting us all worked up over gay people.

We put a lot of time, money, and emotional energy in to this effort for what? To control others? To make them abide by our convictions? To make them incapable of defining their lives as they wish? In my opinion, it's a fools errand. People are going to do what they wish no matter what anyone thinks. All that money, time, effort, and emotional energy put towards the effort to control what they do... isn't worth it. We should simply love God and love others. Pray for the sinners, and focus on telling the world about Jesus. Because right now... Jesus, the church, and the gospel... to a growing segment of our population is all just a part of a vast right-wing political movement. Christianity and the church is no longer a Godly but neutral institution. Frankly, unless one is comfortable with all things Republican, they can't comfortably be a Christian. That's what WE'VE made it.

Let the world be the world. Because they're going to be the world anyway. What troubles me most is how the government is managing the public trust and our money. They are gutting Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Education, pay, and benefits... all we'll have virtually nothing left but our slave wage jobs and struggling families. If we're going to be political, in my opinion, we should be doing more as the Christian community to advocate for the poor, struggling workers, the elderly, the sick, the disabled, and the strangers. But that's just me. I fear they get us all worked up on non-issues like these, that will never change, to advance their agenda to raid the public trust.

We should simply focus on being the church.

[JoeBandy]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Idolatry is a sin of course, but I don't see where De 22:5 associates idolatry with a woman not wearing male garments and visa versa. We can make up some context out of thin air, but we cannot trust in a context that is not presented in the scripture itself. I like to read about history and culture in ancient days, but if the scripture does not give the context we cannot insert things from history and say that is what the verse is really meaning. When I read De 22:5, it is very simple, God don't want me to wear a womans clothes and he don't want women wearing mens clothes. The question is can culture just take a garment of clothing that has always been male attire and put a female label on it and say it is now ok for women.

Prior to 1962 sodomy was a felony in the US punishable by a lengthy term of imprisonment (accodrding to wikipedia). That being said, this nation has lost their minds concerning male and female. I personally feel like the confusion in the role of father and mother in homes since the turn of the 20th century has much to do with homosexuality and transgenderism in our country today.

Whether you realize it or not, small compromises lead to much harm, espeacially over generations. It is the little foxes that spoil the vines.

Yes culture can take a garment and change it. Has not culture changed since Adam and Eve? So with culture changes so has clothing. You will never convince me that homosexuality is rampant because of pants on women! Also, I don't understand why you brought up sodomy.