More on Skirts

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Fair question.

My remedy was/is to re-examine everything I believe and to see what lines up with scripture, rather than the DKB Pentecostal Theology series.

So, you believe that the narrow way isn't so narrow, and the few who find it don't have to really re-examine anything. They just need to be "Christians"

Sound about right?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Nah, they preach against facebook.

Why don't you tell me you are sending me CDs about it and I'll wait a year to get'em.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You have a forum runner on your phone?

Its an app. For AFF. Its not very good, I cant see anything but plain text, so when someone emphasizes something, I don't catch it. When Pliny posts all his comments in someone elses post, I can't tell which are his comments.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Its an app. For AFF. Its not very good, I cant see anything but plain text, so when someone emphasizes something, I don't catch it. When Pliny posts all his comments in someone elses post, I can't tell which are his comments.

I guess my comment went over your head?



I do have to say this about you Jason. You are not the same as Aquila.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, you believe that the narrow way isn't so narrow, and the few who find it don't have to really re-examine anything. They just need to be "Christians"

Sound about right?

I believe the way IS narrow.
Salvation is only through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And it is only those who have been regenerated by the Spirit who are truly saved.

I do believe that much of what goes under the banner of Christianity is apostate, particularly:
-Sub christian sects (JW, Mormonism, SDAs)

-Theological liberalism (mainline Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Episcopalians) The issues that has come to define them are 1)whether they affirm or deny the inerrancy of scripture and 2)whether they preach homosexuality as a sin or are gay affirming. These denominations that have been over run by liberalism are apostate. (All these denominations have formally split or are in the process of doing so. I do see the liberals as apostacized, not so for the conservatives. An example would be the huge differences in the PCUSA contrasted with the PCA. The PCA brethren are goid conservative, largely bible believing people. I think they're wrong on padeobaptism amongst other things, but I believe many are true Christians).

-seeker sensative christianity- this is just a mockery of the church and gosprl, repackaging it to entertain carnal people. Its hard to define because it is stretching s tentacles into various churches. AFF even had a thread about a UPC church having a blow up Spider man on the platform. Newspring church in South Caroluna doi g Highway to Hell during song service on Easter a few years back. Williw Creek surveying the community to see what they want preached. Saddleback and Rick Warren, Lakewood and Joel Osteen, Steven Furtick, Andy Stanley, etc, etc. And all the copy cats. We have a local church here who advertised the "39 minute church", thats right, they promise to get you out in less than 40 minutes. The same church tried a Nascar theme and had nascar decor throughout (we're about 30 minutes from Texas Motor Speedway), the Cowboy churches here are wildly popular, and here in Decatur we have the "full armor biker church" complete with Harley decor and the Harley Davidson badge as a pulpit. Seeker sensative churches minimize repentance and I believe are largely apostate.

-prosperity gospel: Copeland, Dollar and the whole TBN ilk.

-charismatics: not all, but all that is wrapped up by the derogatory expression "gone charismatic", not always distict from prosperity gospel guys, but a different emohasis. Bill Johnson & Bethel Church, Jesus Culture, Hillsong, Rick Joyner & Mirningstar, Mike Bickle & IHOP, Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, all these types, signs and wonders, third wave types. I dont even know if its apostate christianity, its more like neognosticism.

-emergent church guys, Rob Bell, Brian McClaren, Dan Kimball, etc.

Sadly, this covers the majority of "Christianity" in our day.

I believe only those who repent of their sins, who have truly been justified and are sanctified (actively seeking to live holy God honoring lives) are truly saved. I believe this "invisible church" is a mere remnant compared to the large number of confessing christians who are in reality not christians at all.


And that is just the Christian sphere. I dont believe anyone who rejects the person and work of Christ is saved in that error, which means Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, secularists, agnostics, athiests, pagans, Jews, etc.

I believe there is one God who is God of the Jews and Gentiles, and therefore one way of salvation, specifically through Jesus Christ.

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 3:29?-?30 KJV

So yes, I believe the way is narrow.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I believe the way IS narrow.
Salvation is only through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

That's what the UPCI and Apostolics believe. They also believe that list you gave are filled with lost people. What's the difference?

Originally Posted by Jason B

And it is only those who have been regenerated by the Spirit who are truly saved.

Can you tell when that happens? Also how long does that all take?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Pliny... I think you read my posts too fast.

Go back and read them again.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's what the UPCI and Apostolics believe. They also believe that list you gave are filled with lost people. What's the difference?

The difference is they go much further than scripture, one could easily argue further than Jesus himself, or Paul. They (upci/apistolics) are not content with faith in the person and work of the living Christ, but in a system/method that they so adhere to they can't distinguish between Christ and their system. Y'all misunderstand any opposition to your system/method to be opposition to Christ himself.

**Thus the difference is one group is content to allow Christ to work salvation through drawing the sinner to himself, manifesting itself through faith, repentance, and a desire to live a holy life.....while the other is concerned that the correct words were spoken at baptism, that unintelligible words were spoken theteafter, and that a list of do's and dont's be adhered to. One is concerned with the work of the Spirit to bring men to Himself, the other with adding disciples to their group.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Can you tell when that happens?

If you're asking can I observe in a tangible way the moment someone is born again, I'd have to say, at least generally speaking, no. Of course there are indications such as someone surrendering their lives to Christ at an altar call or praying during a street outreach or jail ministry or Bible study, but because false conversion is such an epidemic and repentance can be faked, brought on by emotions but not real conviction, or even just an expression of regret or remorse, I don't assume that just because someone seems to repent and trust Christ, that they in fact do. I will counsel them on true repentance, warn of false convetsions, tell them to count the cost, follow in obedience (encourage baptism) and to seek God through His Word and prayer for what to do next, as well as encourage them to find a faithful Bible believing church. If it's truly a work of God these things tend to happen. If not, they dont.

That's because regeneration is an inward work. Only God knows if a sinner is truly justified or not, because only He can justify. Only God knows if a sinner is truly regererate, because only He can give new life. It is not a tangible observable physical experience.

I know that pentecostals would say "oh but we can tell WHEN, tongues". But that has been demonstrated to not be the case, many who speak in tongues in the altar one week don't even come the next or next. Others endure only for a few weeks or months. Others fake it like Borat, and some want it so bad they fake it to gain acceptance. So any claim that we can observe when someone is saved is highly questionable if not totally false, especially so if the assertion has to do with speaking in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is as much an indication as the sinners prayer, which is to say, almost no indication at all. So WHEN isn't the right question, but WHAT?

"Can you tell WHAT happens?" Yes. The sinner believes the gospel. They feel deep regret and sorrow for their sins. They realize they deserve hell and God would be just to send them there. But they are moved to repent of their sins because of the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They repent of their sins and trust Him. They may not know exactly what to do, but if this is a genuine work of God, they will be justified, regererate, filled with His Spirit, and adopted. We don't observe these things as they happen within. But we observe then a desire to distance oneself from sin, a hatred of the sin that they once loved. A sense of shame and regret for the years they lived in rebellion to Christ. A desire to identify with Christ and an eagerness to share Christ. A strong desire to know Him more, a desire to pray, a real hunger for the Word, often wanting more and more time to read the scripture and listen to preaching/teaching. Then fruit, works, maturing in faith, and enduring all the ups and downs, trials and tribulations that come. All of these things are what happens in genuine conversion to one degree or another. It's not can we tell WHEN, but can we tell WHAT.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Also how long does that all take?

From God's perspective, it is instantaneous. The moment He justifies the sinner, He also regenerates them and adopts them. They are declared righteous, at peace with God, no longer under His wrath, or in the dominion of Satan or subject to the bondage of sin. In an instant. A nanosecond.

From our perspective, it takes a little time.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

The difference is they go much further than scripture, one could easily argue further than Jesus himself, or Paul.

That's not true, that is just your perception. Also you haven't been to every UPCI or Apostolic church. So, you are limited only to the one who were associated with. Bad experiences send people from Baptist to Pentecost, from Pentecost to Baptist to the hodgepodge of the re-examiner church. Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of Truth. Don't get me wrong, re-examining is a part of learning. Just don't think everyone draws the same conclusion you do. Also, gleaning from the heros of Protestant movement is re-examining. It is called shopping for answers. Which Jesus called the blind leading the blind. J. R. R. Tolkien coined the phrase "out of the frying pan and into the fire"

Originally Posted by Jason B

They (upci/apistolics) are not content with faith in the person and work of the living Christ, but in a system/method that they so adhere to they can't distinguish between Christ and their system. Y'all misunderstand any opposition to your system/method to be opposition to Christ himself.

OK, you believe that the UPCI/Apostolic movement to be Antichrist system. Allow me to point something out to you. Your words were "Y'all misunderstand any opposition to your system/method to be opposition to Christ himself." This is the definition of antichrist, because as you know antichrist means in the position of Christ or as His opposition. Actually you believe the UPCI and Apostolic Pentecostal movement is Satanic. I don't mean that you believe that they are conjuring up the devil. But the word Satan means adversary.Since you believe the UPCI and Apostolic Pentecostal movement's system/method to be opposition to Christ himself. Therefore you would logically agree they are adversarial to Christ, hence being Satanic as in adversely opposed to Christ.

What is this forum called again? Apostolic Friends Forum?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason B

The difference is they go much further than scripture, one could easily argue further than Jesus himself, or Paul.

In my experience this is often the situation. And what's funny is, most visitors know enough of the Bible and have enough common sense to realize legalistic excesses when they see them.

For example, the church I was saved in believed that men absolutely had to be clean shaven. They said that having facial hair was a "sin" and that if a man grew a mustache or a beard they would be lost. Some teachers identified it with rebellion and the hippy movement, others identified it as being worldly, others identified it as being improper in a professional world, etc., etc.

Now, take a step back. Put yourself in the shoes of a new covert or a visitor who has enough interest in the Bible to come to church, and you're being told that beards are "sin". To say something is a "sin" is a BIG charge. I've seen the look of absolute disbelief sweep over people's faces when we explained that standard to them. And almost every person who didn't instantly write us off while we were talking would ask,... c'mon, ...say it with me, ...we all know the question, ... "Didn't Jesus and most men in the Bible have beards?" LOL And what's more of a riot is... many of these people don't even have the Holy Ghost yet, and they can already see through this error.

The error is obvious to all but those who adore it.

What those bound in extreme legalisms like these don't realize is... their doctrines and commandments of men are more worldly than Hollywood.

Frankly, I agree with good man and great preacher named, Jeff Arnold. The man used to scare the heck out of my wife every time he'd visit our church by sneaking up on her, but I forgive him. LOL He once said that Jesus Himself couldn't qualify to get a license with the UPCI. I regret to admit it, but he's telling the truth.