Is It Possible? Is It Probable?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's why I say what I say when I say it. Individuals who stand in position of authority and then get some new revelation? When they do they dump it over the pulpit. To only run some people off, turned others into Tinker Bells for Jesus, and send poor souls off into oblivion.

someone at BOTT 2017 preached a message:

*it matters who is sitting at your table*

they took the text about Saul, Jonathan was at his table, but he didn't listen to him, and he ran David off and wanted to kill David, He never even invited the old Prophet of God, Samuel to his table.

It matters who you are listening to, who you are counseling with, who is sitting at your table.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Amanah

someone at BOTT 2017 preached a message:

*it matters who is sitting at your table*

they took the text about Saul, Jonathan was at his table, but he didn't listen to him, and he ran David off and wanted to kill David, He never even invited the old Prophet of God, Samuel to his table.

It matters who you are listening to, who you are counseling with, who is sitting at your table.

That was a great message!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

someone at BOTT 2017 preached a message:

*it matters who is sitting at your table*

they took the text about Saul, Jonathan was at his table, but he didn't listen to him, and he ran David off and wanted to kill David, He never even invited the old Prophet of God, Samuel to his table.

It matters who you are listening to, who you are counseling with, who is sitting at your table.

That is what I'm talking about.

One stepper, three stepper? We are the only people even having these conversations. If I told anyone I knew who is Presbyterian, or Eastern Orthodox they wouldn't know what I was talking about. Like I have posted over and over again, if anyone identifies themselves as a "stepper" then they have more in common with those they point fingers at then they care to admit. The Life of Christ as an Apostolic is holistic. If we are concentrating on one to three steps then we really need to be taken back to the woodshed.

[votivesoul]

In The Winds of God by Ethel Goss, she records her husband's biography, and in it, it is stated that a great many of the brethren back then were absolutely opposed to "organizing".

But what happened is that so many were going through, pretending to be a preacher, promising some great revival, for an upfront fee, and churches and saints everywhere were getting fleeced.

This is what caused the brethren to finally decide organization was the correct way to go, as it allowed those who carried membership to prove to any church or saint, who he was, what he believed, and if he was a good fit for them as a pastor, evangelist, or etc.

Essentially, the effort was to protect brothers and sisters in Christ from false prophets.

It seems like a noble ideal. But for me, it raises the question: Where did Jesus ever say we needed to piggyback a man-made organization onto the church in order to protect the saints from false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing?

It seems to me the way churches and saints do that is by knowing the Word for themselves, to keep the commandments of God, and obey the Lord, and if they do that, the Spirit will lead and guide them into all truth without so much as a single organization necessary.

My conclusion, as it stands now, is that, these many decades later, the attempts and successes of organizing the Apostolic Pentecostal movement was not the correct approach.

Now, it is rare to find churches full of people who know their Word, who are actively ministering their gifts and callings, who are engaged in their community to win the lost. So many churches are full of passive people who desire that someone else do all the ministering, so they can have therapeutic experiences while doing nothing else to bring the catharsis about.

The fires of revival that existed back then, the zeal to evangelize and disseminate the Gospel was so much more powerful and all-encompassing. Now, saints are trained to simply invite someone to a building on a particular day so someone can sing at them and someone can collect their cash, and someone can give their commentary about the Bible, and the person who did the inviting either thinks they've shared the Gospel simply by inviting, or feels like the ones who don't come at the appointed time must not have a hunger and thirst for righteousness, for truth, for God, because they decline the invite.

I think organizing has led to a lot of good in many notable ways, but like anything else, if the heavens are going to be shaken, then so shall everything else, including organizations and effort to keep the monolith the way it is.

But it's also led to a lot of cloistering, minister worship, ministry coveting, unsanctified laziness, stress and burn-out at lack of "results", strife and division over who can and cannot serve in the Kingdom of God, foolish building programs and arguments and fights over money, and other such things that are completely incongruent with the commission the church received on the Mount of Olives.

I do not think the creation of the UPCI was the "will of God", since there is no clear command in the Holy Scriptures for the creation of such. Sure, we should "know them that labor among us", and all of that, but that can be done simply by communicating with each other through organic networking over the phone and internet.

When I was a part of a UPCI affiliated church, we had a lot of card-carrying members come through, who were recommended by the "org" because they needed to raise funds to get back to wherever, or to get themselves to the next church somewhere else, and in many cases, they ended up being nutters and frauds who caused us to have to do damage control after they did their thing in the pulpit.

In this way, organizing hasn't helped much. Rather, it has caused a lot of obligation and blindness of problems in and among the brethren, because we don't want to dare say a word against another member of the organization, even if they are off the rails wack-o. People in my wife's extended family are in the UPCI, and whenever we were around them, it was always "no one likes a bad report", and whatever other excuses for licensed ministers who were more problem than solution.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In The Winds of God by Ethel Goss, she records her husband's biography, and in it, it is stated that a great many of the brethren back then were absolutely opposed to "organizing".

But what happened is that so many were going through, pretending to be a preacher, promising some great revival, for an upfront fee, and churches and saints everywhere were getting fleeced.

This is what caused the brethren to finally decide organization was the correct way to go, as it allowed those who carried membership to prove to any church or saint, who he was, what he believed, and if he was a good fit for them as a pastor, evangelist, or etc.

Essentially, the effort was to protect brothers and sisters in Christ from false prophets.

It seems like a noble ideal. But for me, it raises the question: Where did Jesus ever say we needed to piggyback a man-made organization onto the church in order to protect the saints from false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing?

It seems to me the way churches and saints do that is by knowing the Word for themselves, to keep the commandments of God, and obey the Lord, and if they do that, the Spirit will lead and guide them into all truth without so much as a single organization necessary.

My conclusion, as it stands now, is that, these many decades later, the attempts and successes of organizing the Apostolic Pentecostal movement was not the correct approach.

Now, it is rare to find churches full of people who know their Word, who are actively ministering their gifts and callings, who are engaged in their community to win the lost. So many churches are full of passive people who desire that someone else do all the ministering, so they can have therapeutic experiences while doing nothing else to bring the catharsis about.

The fires of revival that existed back then, the zeal to evangelize and disseminate the Gospel was so much more powerful and all-encompassing. Now, saints are trained to simply invite someone to a building on a particular day so someone can sing at them and someone can collect their cash, and someone can give their commentary about the Bible, and the person who did the inviting either thinks they've shared the Gospel simply by inviting, or feels like the ones who don't come at the appointed time must not have a hunger and thirst for righteousness, for truth, for God, because they decline the invite.

I think organizing has led to a lot of good in many notable ways, but like anything else, if the heavens are going to be shaken, then so shall everything else, including organizations and effort to keep the monolith the way it is.

But it's also led to a lot of cloistering, minister worship, ministry coveting, unsanctified laziness, stress and burn-out at lack of "results", strife and division over who can and cannot serve in the Kingdom of God, foolish building programs and arguments and fights over money, and other such things that are completely incongruent with the commission the church received on the Mount of Olives.

I do not think the creation of the UPCI was the "will of God", since there is no clear command in the Holy Scriptures for the creation of such. Sure, we should "know them that labor among us", and all of that, but that can be done simply by communicating with each other through organic networking over the phone and internet.

When I was a part of a UPCI affiliated church, we had a lot of card-carrying members come through, who were recommended by the "org" because they needed to raise funds to get back to wherever, or to get themselves to the next church somewhere else, and in many cases, they ended up being nutters and frauds who caused us to have to do damage control after they did their thing in the pulpit.

In this way, organizing hasn't helped much. Rather, it has caused a lot of obligation and blindness of problems in and among the brethren, because we don't want to dare say a word against another member of the organization, even if they are off the rails wack-o. People in my wife's extended family are in the UPCI, and whenever we were around them, it was always "no one likes a bad report", and whatever other excuses for licensed ministers who were more problem than solution.

In the church mentioned above, for several years before we left it, I kept hammering away at the members about the 80/20 rule, and how it needed to be broken so the whole church could be what God wanted it to be. Everyone listened and agreed in word, but nothing in deed ever seemed to change. The status quo continued, the problems and problem people hung around, fuses became shorter and shorter, and a lot of nasty was said and done in the name of God's "will".

Now that we are out of that assembly, and are a part of another that get's it, there isn't anyone expected to do all of the ministering or work of the Lord. Each are expected to do their share, and no one gets a pass. Basically, if you don't evangelize, no one is going to jump in and create an outreach team to do it for you, and etc.

It's a lot harder than what most might be used to, but it's surely the right way. When the persecutions in Jerusalem reached a fevered pitch, the entire church there disbanded, but for the apostles, and they went and preached wherever they went. No cloistering, hiding under the pew, waiting for church leadership to make all the decisions. Nope, each saint in Acts shod their feet with the gospel of peace and went about fulfilling the Great Commission without needing an organization to keep track of it and make sure everyone fell in line with their charter and by-laws.

Sure, the water is deeper out there, but then again, we can walk on water, whenever necessary and called to do so, if we but have faith and trust our Master.