Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

So, then according to your reasoning, is one not saved until hie meets Jesus at the White Throne Judgment?

Does salvation has a beginning and an ending?

If you are saying one is not saved until judgment day, how does that concept agree with the following scriptures?

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:


Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Does Mark 16 say "he that believes and is baptised is saved" or not?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

He that believeth on me.... that is the focus you should see here in this scripture... This scripture clearly shows that out of the belly of one that believes, will flow rivers of living water.

Do you think that those who have believed on Jesus Christ, but have not been baptized in Jesus name are saved?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

So, then according to your reasoning, is one not saved until hie meets Jesus at the White Throne Judgment?

Does salvation has a beginning and an ending?

If you are saying one is not saved until judgment day, how does that concept agree with the following scriptures?

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:


Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Strong'sg4982. σώζω sōzō; from a primary σῶς sōs (contraction for obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, i. e. deliver or protect

"to save" and "saved" are not the same. KJV translation's use of "saved" is clearly understood to be where someone is currently standing with God. Many English translations use the term being saved in each of the scriptures you used. I am KJV believer, but we must rightly divide the word of truth.

Although our sins are remitted through repentance and baptism, it is not until the judgement that we are actually saved from what most people are meaning when they say they are saved. The fallacy in this way of thinking is that if we are already saved then we cannot be lost. If we are going to be saved we must continue in Jesus Christ.

That is why the baptism of the Holy Ghost is necessary. We need God's Spirit to fill our lives in order to keep us.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

One should respond exactly as the disciples did in this case:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

You said that they should do exactly as the apostles did. After they had baptized them in Jesus name they laid hands on them to be filled with the Holy Ghost. If they already had the Holy Ghost at baptism why did they lay hands on them to be filled. I think your consistent answer has been that they had a measure at repentance and baptism. If that be the case why was it important for them to lay hands on them for the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

If tongues is only one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and not the initial evidence; why then is no other gift demonstrated in the Bible when they where filled (save prophesying and magnifying God).

BTW tongues is a form of prophecy. To prophesy is to speak by inspiration of God, and is that not what we do when we speak in tongues.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

You said that they should do exactly as the apostles did. After they had baptized them in Jesus name they laid hands on them to be filled with the Holy Ghost. If they already had the Holy Ghost at baptism why did they lay hands on them to be filled. I think your consistent answer has been that they had a measure at repentance and baptism. If that be the case why was it important for them to lay hands on them for the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

If tongues is only one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and not the initial evidence; why then is no other gift demonstrated in the Bible when they where filled (save prophesying and magnifying God).

BTW tongues is a form of prophecy. To prophesy is to speak by inspiration of God, and is that not what we do when we speak in tongues.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Does Mark 16 say "he that believes and is baptised is saved" or not?

No, it says this:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

See below my comment regarding that:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Salvation reminds me of this illustration. Jesus often chose parables to better illustrate the lesson He was trying to teach and I find that one can understand the lesson being taught if an illustration accompanies it.

Jesus bought and paid for the "house of salvation". A preacher of the gospel comes to us and tells us Jesus has bought a house of salvation, and all we need to do is come to Him and ask to live in it. By faith, we come to Jesus, and say we want to live in this "house of salvation" that He owns. We contract with him by believing and being baptized, with his blood being the signature on the contract, and He tells us that we now can come into the house of salvation, but in order to continue living in this house we must seek to be filled with His spirit, and continue to be His disciples in all we do, and as long as continue to do this, we can live in His house of salvation, until upon our death then we can enter the kingdom of heaven, after living faithfully in the house of salvation and fulfilling our part of the contract.

Or, it could be said this way: We enter into a contract through the blood of Jesus upon our faith/believing/repentance and baptism, and upon doing that, His spirit can take up residence in our lives, and upon continuing to be obedient until the end of the contract end (end of our lives) we then are able to finish the contract and enter into eternity and heaven with Jesus.

Salvation occurs at the beginning of the contract, but the completion of the contract does not take place until the end of our lives. It is a two-part thing... we can both be saved, and continue being saved.

Same idea as when you buy a house. You can say you "own" the house, and in one sense you do, but you have not fully paid for it, or completed the conditions necessary when you signed to purchase the home. Not until the home is completely paid for, and the title in your name, do you truly own it, even though in one sense you can say you own the house.

So I have tried in the best way I know how, to explain through an illustration how salvation means one can both be saved, and continue to be saved, all in the same breath.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Do you think that those who have believed on Jesus Christ, but have not been baptized in Jesus name are saved?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

"to save" and "saved" are not the same. KJV translation's use of "saved" is clearly understood to be where someone is currently standing with God. Many English translations use the term being saved in each of the scriptures you used. I am KJV believer, but we must rightly divide the word of truth.

Although our sins are remitted through repentance and baptism, it is not until the judgement that we are actually saved from what most people are meaning when they say they are saved. The fallacy in this way of thinking is that if we are already saved then we cannot be lost. If we are going to be saved we must continue in Jesus Christ.

That is why the baptism of the Holy Ghost is necessary. We need God's Spirit to fill our lives in order to keep us.

See my post above to Esaias.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

You said that they should do exactly as the apostles did. After they had baptized them in Jesus name they laid hands on them to be filled with the Holy Ghost. If they already had the Holy Ghost at baptism why did they lay hands on them to be filled. I think your consistent answer has been that they had a measure at repentance and baptism. If that be the case why was it important for them to lay hands on them for the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

To receive the power that Jesus spoke of.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If tongues is only one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and not the initial evidence; why then is no other gift demonstrated in the Bible when they where filled (save prophesying and magnifying God).

You just answered your own question, there were other signs, such as prophesying. But I don't argue in the least that tongues were recorded as the most common sign given.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Salvation reminds me of this illustration. Jesus often chose parables to better illustrate the lesson He was trying to teach and I find that one can understand the lesson being taught if an illustration accompanies it.

Jesus bought and paid for the "house of salvation". A preacher of the gospel comes to us and tells us Jesus has bought a house of salvation, and all we need to do is come to Him and ask to live in it. By faith, we come to Jesus, and say we want to live in this "house of salvation" that He owns. We contract with him by believing and being baptized, with his blood being the signature on the contract, and He tells us that we now can come into the house of salvation, but in order to continue living in this house we must seek to be filled with His spirit, and continue to be His disciples in all we do, and as long as continue to do this, we can live in His house of salvation, until upon our death then we can enter the kingdom of heaven, after living faithfully in the house of salvation and fulfilling our part of the contract.

Or, it could be said this way: We enter into a contract through the blood of Jesus upon our faith/believing/repentance and baptism, and upon doing that, His spirit can take up residence in our lives, and upon continuing to be obedient until the end of the contract end (end of our lives) we then are able to finish the contract and enter into eternity and heaven with Jesus.

Salvation occurs at the beginning of the contract, but the completion of the contract does not take place until the end of our lives. It is a two-part thing... we can both be saved, and continue being saved.

Same idea as when you buy a house. You can say you "own" the house, and in one sense you do, but you have not fully paid for it, or completed the conditions necessary when you signed to purchase the home. Not until the home is completely paid for, and the title in your name, do you truly own it, even though in one sense you can say you own the house.

So I have tried in the best way I know how, to explain through an illustration how salvation means one can both be saved, and continue to be saved, all in the same breath.

I agree with you in parts of this. I like to use the term covenant. When we repent and are baptized we enter covenant with God and in return He(God) seals us by his Spirit until the day of our redemption. some of the underlined parts is where I don't understand.

The first underlined statement you said that the believer must seek the Spirit of God. In the second underlined statement you said he "can" be filled with the Spirit. AS if it is an optional thing.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter did not say you "can" get the Holy Ghost if you repent and are baptized, but he said you "shall". I don't believe we should bombard new converts with speaking in tongues, but we must show them in the scripture that it is a promise to be received, and it demonstrates God's acceptance of our sacrifice of repentance. Understand that the we are sealed by the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

sealed -Strong's g4972. σφραγίζω sphragizō; from 4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation

I have struggled understanding what you believe. At times it seems that you have just refuted the evidence of tongues, but in other places it seems like you believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost itself is optional.

[good samaritan]

As far as being "saved", so long as we stay in covenant with God we are in a safe standing with Him. We are not saved until the day of our redemption. I think we may be in agreement, except that I believe that we will be sealed by the Holy Ghost with the Evidence of tongues just like all the many other cases in the book of Acts.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I agree with you in parts of this. I like to use the term covenant. When we repent and are baptized we enter covenant with God and in return He(God) seals us by his Spirit until the day of our redemption. some of the underlined parts is where I don't understand.

The first underlined statement you said that the believer must seek the Spirit of God. In the second underlined statement you said he "can" be filled with the Spirit. AS if it is an optional thing.


Peter did not say you "can" get the Holy Ghost if you repent and are baptized, but he said you "shall". I don't believe we should bombard new converts with speaking in tongues, but we must show them in the scripture that it is a promise to be received, and it demonstrates God's acceptance of our sacrifice of repentance. Understand that the we are sealed by the baptism of the Holy Ghost.


I have struggled understanding what you believe. At times it seems that you have just refuted the evidence of tongues, but in other places it seems like you believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost itself is optional.

That's why I posed that hypothetical earlier in the thread. I wanted to find out if she really believed it was an optional thing apart from salvation, or if she thought it was necessary, just not as part of the salvational processes or something else entirely that maybe wasn't being clearly communicated. Unfortunately she wouldn't give me a straight answer, so I'm also uncertain where she stands on the matter.