Who's authorized to baptize whom? - Page 7

Esaias · #61 10-03-2016, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Terms used in the early church are "elders", "brothers", "sisters", "sons", "daughters", "fathers", etc.

These are all terms used in a family. While yes, there is government, the government is simply modeled after family. You have your elders, brothers, sisters, etc. And gatherings are family gatherings wherein bread is broken and Jesus is celebrated. The elders share the stories and teach principles.

We're a family.... and it is in this context that we govern and are governed.

Exactly, which means the "there is no authority" line is false. Folks can debate the scope and mode of authority, but the FACT of authority is indisputable.

mfblume · #62 10-03-2016, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Exactly, which means the "there is no authority" line is false. Folks can debate the scope and mode of authority, but the FACT of authority is indisputable.

Amen, and papers are not necessary.

votivesoul · #63 10-03-2016, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Exactly, which means the "there is no authority" line is false. Folks can debate the scope and mode of authority, but the FACT of authority is indisputable.

I wonder if sometimes there is a confusion in which those who seem to be anti-authority are really just trying to find the place where true authority is supposed to be?

Additionally, I sometimes think those who have been on the receiving end of an abuse of authority, are too quickly dismissed as rebels and wandering stars, because they are afraid of getting hurt again, and no one has taken the time to nurse them back to spiritual health.

Esaias · #64 10-03-2016, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I wonder if sometimes there is a confusion in which those who seem to be anti-authority are really just trying to find the place where true authority is supposed to be?

Additionally, I sometimes think those who have been on the receiving end of an abuse of authority, are too quickly dismissed as rebels and wandering stars, because they are afraid of getting hurt again, and no one has taken the time to nurse them back to spiritual health.

There is confusion on both sides, unfortunately. The question I have to ask myself though is this: Just exactly who do I follow? God? Or man, whether myself or someone else? If I follow God, then I will at some point recognise that God has ordained authority. Not just authority in general, but 'ecclesiastical' authority. And if I am following God, I cannot allow any hurts to get in the way of me finding him and his will for my life. Gotta suck it up, drink water, and drive on at some point.

Now, it is to be expected that King Nebu will denounce as lawless rebels all who will not bow to the golden idol when they strike up the band, but again that's to be expected. The time will come when those who kill you will think they do God service.

Or so I've heard.

EDIT to add: This is not an endorsement of just any thing claiming to be 'the authorituh'. We must rightly recognise God-ordained authority, and we must likewise reject unbiblical humanistic and satanic authority (no matter how religious it may be dressed up). But authority there is. Christ has it all, and he dispenses it as he pleases.

shazeep · #65 10-04-2016, 09:08 AM

amen to both of those

i could point out again that this,

"The time will come when those who kill you will think they do God service.

Or so I've heard."

is being perpetrated in your name, right now, but if your current Two Choices aren't telling you anything, then that likely is not registering either. Yet.

and i have little doubt that Paul got water baptized, actually, and i doubt any future followers of Christ will ever stop wanting to be water baptized. Paul's may have been obscured so we could contend over it, or it might be an issue like Jesus' birthdate--iow seemingly important to us, but not lauded in Scripture because there is a spiritual principle involved, that maybe being the baptism of the Spirit and fire in this case. Wouldn't hurt to examine your analogues for those--if you even have any--and compare them with Paul's, imo.

shazeep · #66 10-04-2016, 09:11 AM

God is not going to punish you for a fearless examination of Him.

Disciple4life · #67 10-04-2016, 11:01 AM

I haven't taken the time to read everybody's comments. I did read the article. So since you don't have to read the article to comment I don't think I need to read anybody's comments who didn't read the article.

I have a question. Let's say I am walking through the dessert and somebody walks up to me and says REPENT! Be BAPTIZED in JESUS NAME! Let me lay hands on you and you WILL Receive The HOLY GHOST by the Evidence of SPEAKING IN TONGUES! Know that the Lord your God is ONE. JESUS who died on a cross, rose on the third day and NOW sits on the ONE throne in Heaven because he is the CREATOR and GOD ALMIGHTY!
And then I repent, believe and am baptized in Jesus Name, is that baptism valid?

mfblume · #68 10-04-2016, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

I haven't taken the time to read everybody's comments. I did read the article. So since you don't have to read the article to comment I don't think I need to read anybody's comments who didn't read the article.

I have a question. Let's say I am walking through the dessert and somebody walks up to me and says REPENT! Be BAPTIZED in JESUS NAME! Let me lay hands on you and you WILL Receive The HOLY GHOST by the Evidence of SPEAKING IN TONGUES! Know that the Lord your God is ONE. JESUS who died on a cross, rose on the third day and NOW sits on the ONE throne in Heaven because he is the CREATOR and GOD ALMIGHTY!
And then I repent, believe and am baptized in Jesus Name, is that baptism valid?

I just read the article, but your question and the article leave me with a question. What if your hypothetical baptizer was a convicted rapist and not truly repentant? There's no way of knowing. Would it make a difference so long as you were sincere? Thoughts?

Does it become a matter of someone proving themselves first?

Disciple4life · #69 10-04-2016, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I just read the article, but your question and the article leave me with a question. What if your hypothetical baptizer was a convicted rapist and not truly repentant? There's no way of knowing. Would it make a difference so long as you were sincere? Thoughts?

Does it become a matter of someone proving themselves first?

Mike let me respectfully say WOW!!!
First I will not answer the question if the person is a rapist. Why? Because it is just like me asking you what is somebody hears the gospel, loves Jesus with all their heart, receives the Holy Ghost by the evidence of speaking in tongues and then gets in a car to drive somewhere to be baptized and they get in a horrible car wreck and die! At a certain point these "what if" questions are silly.

When I was baptized it was by a minister. He was accredited or in good standing or whatever you call it with the UPCI. He had a church in the same town for at least 30 years and he had an excellent reputation.

But for me that wasn't the big deal. It had nothing to do with him. It had everything to do with me and God. Period.

Disciple4life · #70 10-04-2016, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I just read the article, but your question and the article leave me with a question. What if your hypothetical baptizer was a convicted rapist and not truly repentant? There's no way of knowing. Would it make a difference so long as you were sincere? Thoughts?

Does it become a matter of someone proving themselves first?

In my scenario in the desert the person did prove them-self. They preached the Gospel, they preached the message of Acts 238 and they preached there is one God on the throne and his name is Jesus!