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  #41  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:26 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

The saints are the ones elected. Surely you know these things? Christ calls them together into an ekklesia.

The apostles sit on 12 thrones, judging the tribes of new covenant Israel. That's God-ordained authority.

1 Cor 6:4 calls for setting people into a position of authority over any two or more saints who have a secular dispute. That's God-ordained authority.

Titus 1:5 is clearly an exercise of vicarious apostolic authority in setting things in order and ordaining elders.

1 Cor 11:2 speaks of apostolic ordinances. That presupposes both authority, and obligation to recognize that authority on the part of the church.

An ekklesia is a governmental entity:

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Ekklesia
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Ekkleio Ekklino
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1577 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ekklesia from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ekklesia 3:501,394
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ek-klay-see'-ah Noun Feminine
Definition
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
the assembly of the Israelites
any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
in a Christian sense
an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
NAS Word Usage - Total: 114
assembly 3, church 74, churches 35, congregation 2

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexic.../ekklesia.html

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Ekklesia has this:

n. pl. ec·cle·si·ae (-zhē-ē′, -zē-ē′)
1. The political assembly of citizens of an ancient Greek state.
2.
a. A church or congregation.
b. The collective body of Christian believers regarded as constituting a universal church.
[Latin ecclēsia, from Greek ekklēsiā, from ekkalein, to summon forth : ek-, out; see ecto- + kalein, klē-, to call; see kelə- in Indo-European roots.]
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
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  #42  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:36 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

G3421

??????????
mne?moneuo?
mnay-mon-yoo'-o
From a derivative of G3420; to exercise memory, that is, recollect; by implication to punish; also to rehearse: - make mention, be mindful, remember.

The statement is to remember, nothing about authority or obedience. Just because someone holds a position of supposed ruler ship, does not make them a ruler.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

G3982

??????
peitho?
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Blind obedience is not the meaning of this word, Just because one of the meanings of the word is "obey" does not make it the right translation of the word in the context.
We are to be persuaded by our own study what is true, not just because someone in the position of pastor (that may or may not be called of God) says so.

"study to show yourselves approved" "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling". How does one equate the supposed authority of Pastors in the face of these passages. How does one seek out their own salvation when the preacher/pastor says he is the mouth piece of God.

"The very word "ekklesia" implies authority.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom, another term necessarily indicating government ie authority. It's not the Rotary Club of God, but the Kingdom of God, with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government."

Don't see that in the definition!
G1577

??????????
ekkle?sia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government"
Elected members? Where is scripture do we have the rule of elected members carrying functions of government. Where and how does Christ fit into your church as head?

Amen, but you see there is a movement called the "me, myself, and I" group who cannot explain Church government. The pendulum swings for them from pastor/teacher/evangelist/apostle/prophet, all the way to their own private Idaho. The word ???????? becomes meaningless, and therefore they exist in a Robinson Crusoe Bible study world, where everyone is right in their own mind. The Bible verses are bantered back and forth like a ball in a tennis match. They are always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of Truth. In fact, they start to erase truths they once held, and sadly some times even to the point of Atheism.

You have no idea, it is not the "me, myself, and I group" it is only the group. We are the "ekkle?sia" Called out ones. Gathered together because of our belief in Christ and his kingdom. And while you are worried about supposed truths once held, I would say they are traditions not truths.
And if some have gone to the point of atheism, I would say it is because of those that pushed traditions as truth, that when people realized this, their whole existence was based on these traditions, and not Christ, they had noting left to have faith in.

Which is why pastors and preachers have a grave responsibility to teach only truth and not their own pet peeves.
If a person has rulership over others and others are told to submit then that proves your idea of no authority is incorrect. God rules through people. We don't serve the people, but the God whose authored works through them.

Who said anything about elected members?
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  #43  
Old 10-02-2016, 11:35 PM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Amen, shazeep is just trying to keep the argument hot, and in his mind he is winning.

He's definitely a legend in his own mind.
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  #44  
Old 10-03-2016, 02:25 AM
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votivesoul votivesoul is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

There isn't a single verse that reads "These (fill in the blank) are qualified to baptize".

Rather, we have examples of people being immersed, or of accounts given. These examples give us a basic framework to begin to try and answer the question. But the honest truth is, there isn't enough info to fully reach a conclusion.

Here is what I mean:

In the Gospels, John the Baptist immerses.

Eventually the 12 apostles with Christ leading them, begin to immerse people in the Gospels.

On Pentecost, 3,000 are immersed, but it never states who actually did it. The 12 Apostles? A likely assumption, but not indicated by the text.

Acts 8, Philip, a deacon, later called Evangelist, begins immersing in Samaria, then immerses an Ethiopian proselyte to the Jewish faith.

Acts 9, Saul is immersed. It reads only "was baptized". Doesn't say who did it. Paul later gives his testimony in Acts 22, and in verse 16, he makes it sound like he immersed himself. But did he? Did Ananias do it? Someone else in Damascus? We can't say because the account doesn't say.

Acts 10, Cornelius and his house are immersed. Simon Peter calls for it, but it doesn't state he actually did it. We might assume so, but we can't know for certain because no certain verse states who did the immersing.

Acts 13, Saul/Paul and Barnabas are called Prophets and Teachers. The Holy Spirit separates them, and they become missionary evangelists. Later, though, in Acts 14:14, Luke calls them Apostles.

In Acts 16, we read that Lydda and her family were immersed, but the text doesn't state who did it. Presumably Paul or Silas, but maybe not?

Later, in the same chapter, the prison warden and his family are immersed. By Paul and Silas? Again, it doesn't say.

In Acts 18, Paul founds the church in Corinth. We read about many immersions taking place, but the info is vague. However, in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul indicates he personally immersed Crispus and Gaius, but doesn't recall if he immersed anyone else.

Acts 19, Paul seemingly immerses the 12 disciples of John's immersion, but it doesn't specifically state that Paul took them into his arms and dunked them under water; just that "they were baptized".

Finally, Acts 22, already mentioned above.

After this, there are no other accounts or indications of any immersions.

So, to conclude, what have we?

We have a very special prophet of God, ordained by prophecy out of the OT, immersing Jews in the Jordan river as part of God's will for his work. He even immerses the Christ.

Then, the Christ's disciples begin immersing under His direction. Most likely as training for the New Covenant.

On Pentecost, we can assume with some safety, that the apostles immersed the 3,000. But again, it's only an assumption.

Then we have a deacon who becomes an evangelist immersing folks in Acts 8.

Next, Paul is immersed, either by Ananias, someone else, or by himself. If by Ananias, let it be said that no particular gift or position is mentioned in regards to him and his ministry.

Then we have the Gentile conversion through Simon Peter's ministry. He probably immersed them, but it doesn't say so specifically.

Next to last, we have a case of two prophets and teachers called to apostleship, who likely performed immersions for Lydda and her family, and for the prison warden and his family, in Philippi.

Finally, we have Apostle Paul immersing at least two men in Corinth, and then, most likely immersing the 12 students he found in the coasts of Ephesus.

So, this is what I see:

I see John immersing people in order to reveal the Messiah to Israel (the Gospels). I see the disciples immersing folks under the direction of the Messiah (The Gospels). Then I see Apostles likely performing immersions (Acts 2). I definitely see a deacon called to be an evangelist performing immersions, both on a grand and also on an intimate scale (Acts 8). I see the possibility of a so-called "laymen" immersing one person, while also admitting that such is only a possibility (Acts 9 with Acts 22). I see some Gentiles getting immersed, likely by an apostle (Acts 10). Next, in all likelihood, two missional evangelists later called apostles, immerse a couple of families, one under somewhat normal conditions, the other under very unique conditions (Acts 16). I see, because of Paul's assertion in 1 Corinthians 1, that he, as an apostle and evangelist (See Greek for "preach the Gospel' in verse 17), immersed at least two men in Corinth, and yet, many others were immersed--something Paul doesn't remember doing in particular--so who performed them (Acts 18)? Lastly, an apostle immerses 12 men he meets and shares the Gospel with 9Acts 19).

That leaves us with the following:

One very unique prophet, Apostles in training under the direction of Jesus, trained Apostles, Deacons cum Evangelists, Prophets and Teachers who become Missionary Evangelists, and possibly no ministerial gifts or positions/titles held doing all of the immersing in the writings of the New Covenant.

Is there a take-a-away from all this?

The first thing I notice is that the words "pastor", "elder", and "bishop" are nowhere associated with immersions, even though "deacon" is.

The second thing I notice is that all of the other gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 are mentioned specifically, and associated with immersions.

This causes me to wonder if we are not doing things quite backwards, where only pastors, elders, and bishops tend to do all of the immersions, while the other four gifts from Christ (along with the deaconate) take a backseat, or passive role in bringing people into New Covenant salvation?

The third thing I notice is that, in order for the five gifts to the church to successfully equip the saints for the work of the ministry, apostles in training, prophets in training, evangelists in training, and teachers in training are going to have to, at some point, begin immersing people in order for them to become fully trained.

The last thing I notice is that since the entire church is commissioned to teach all nations, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, then the entire church is ultimately responsible for every immersion. This means that even if there is no "qualified" person to perform an immersion, immersions still needs must take place, or else the entire church cannot successfully achieve its mandate from the Lord.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 10-03-2016 at 02:31 AM.
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  #45  
Old 10-03-2016, 02:30 AM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

Good ideas, Votivesoul.
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  #46  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:24 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
A person doesn't need papers to be a pastor, but the purpose of papers, if they are involved, is to show that the one ordained is recognized and can be trusted as one who indeed sincerely believes the doctrine the said fellowship proposes. Know them that labour among you. It just facilitates a means of knowing the one labouring among you is in good standing with the brethren of the particular fellowship whose doctrine you believe in.

I think people miss the point of suc "papers".
It's been my experience that those with "papers" are often the most corrupt. I mean, Benny Hinn has "papers".

Coming from the house church side, our elders do not have papers. They are "known" personally by those in the fellowship for their integrity, clean living, their anointing, and their biblical understanding. They don't really need papers, their calling and dedication elevates them naturally.
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  #47  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:27 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by shag View Post
There MUST be a Spiritual minimum(standard) for folks....to be proven to be rooted and grounded in the faith, for doing the baptism. Else anyone can baptise anyone, even if they daily battle porn, Copenhagen, anger physically and verbally-management, and lusting after another persons spouse...on and on...
Be proven.
You make a good point. The only counter thought I'd have would be, Must one be "perfect" in order to baptize another?

Satan is the accuser of the brethren. It would be much like him to throw our weaknesses, struggles, and imperfections in our face to prevent us from baptizing. After all, even among licensed pastors, they battle all those things too.
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  #48  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:30 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Right. And that standard is the equivalent to what some people use as papers, and nothing more. I would want to know if the person baptizing me believes what I am supposed to believe according to the bible. Whatever it takes to know that, is what is required.
I agree. But I don't think papers or licenses really prove anything. You have to get to know the elders and those you fellowship. And yes, sometimes as time passes, and you grow in biblical knowledge, you might realize that an elder doesn't believe the word in several places. My first pastor believed in the Gap-Theory.
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  #49  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:31 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

If it wasn't enough to have common sense tell us we should know if the person baptizing us is in good standing with others and is known to stand for a particular doctrine and not be double minded with such important issues, that verse should do it.
Amen. We must personally "know" those who labor among us. Knowing they have papers isn't the same as "knowing" them personally.
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  #50  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:32 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?

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Originally Posted by shazeep View Post
strikes me that the first baptizer who gets some piece of paper, and then later cleans the church's clock financially, is presenting another pov, wadr. Paper does not equal "knowing" iow. Personally in that position i would feel responsible to sue the ordinator, but never mind that for now.
Good point. It all becomes very much that prepackaged institutionalized religion full of artificial flavors and preservatives.
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