born of water

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Sean

Thats how new doctrines are created, by substituting words that we dont agree with.

who is "we?" And this seems naive of "translation," in general--which i'm sure you are not--wherein a word often has no direct synonym.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

What if one of them chose a brutal death over denying the Lord?

So we should enter into hypothetical situations?
If a person is martyred, brutal or not, the judgment belongs to the Lord:
not you, anyone else, and especially me;
The Lord, who knows the heart of man, also knows whether a "martyr" is
acting in true faith, out of a desire to please man (a denomination), and
has not willingly denied the NAME;
I can not justify anyone; and I could not say whether anyone who
denies the NAME is "saved".

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

So we should enter into hypothetical situations?
If a person is martyred, brutal or not, the judgment belongs to the Lord:
not you, anyone else, and especially me;
The Lord, who knows the heart of man, also knows whether a "martyr" is
acting in true faith, out of a desire to please man (a denomination), and
has not willingly denied the NAME;
I can not justify anyone; and I could not say whether anyone who
denies the NAME is "saved".

Why would someone refuse to deny Jesus and me martyred if they were not sincere? Furthermore, if someone who did not have the name of Jesus invoked over them at baptism, but is filled with the Spirit, they bear the name through the Spirit of adoption.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Thats how new doctrines are created, by substituting words that we dont agree with.

Name means authority. It's perfectly in order and does not create a new doctrine.

[shag]

Acts 3:
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the authority of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

16 And his authority through faith in his authority hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.


Acts 4:30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the authority of your holy servant Jesus.”




There, I fixed it.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by shag

Acts 3:
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the authority of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

16 And his authority through faith in his authority hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.


Acts 4:30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the authority of your holy servant Jesus.”




There, I fixed it.

It actually works just fine and enhances the meaning of passage.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Name means authority. It's perfectly in order and does not create a new doctrine.

Name doesn't mean authority. Give a scripture that says that. A name is a person's identity. We don't ever "possess" Christ authority, but are under his authority. There is only one way and that is Jesus Christ. I use His name to be obedient and to identify Him. I am under his authority by using His name in all I do. That means to use a literal invoking of the name.

You have left taking the scriptures at face value to interpreting the scriptures to your personally theology. Name simply means name so you shouldn't change name to authority. The bible says, "authority" where it should and it says, "name" where it should. You will never go wrong by taking the word of God literally and at face value. We should take it for what it says and stop looking for some secret code or deeper meaning in everything.

The Holy Ghost is never going to lead someone to believe that His name is not an essential part of our salvation. If you are under His authority you are going to teach what the Bible says and not twist scriptures to make it flexible for more people's circumstances. Obedience should be in all things including baptism. Water baptism is necessary also. I don't know which is the most important: Spirit baptism or water baptism. The scriptures teach us that we are to have both.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Name doesn't mean authority. Give a scripture that says that. A name is a person's identity. We don't ever "possess" Christ authority, but are under his authority. There is only one way and that is Jesus Christ. I use His name to be obedient and to identify Him. I am under his authority by using His name in all I do. That means to use a literal invoking of the name.

You have left taking the scriptures at face value to interpreting the scriptures to your personally theology. Name simply means name so you shouldn't change name to authority. The bible says, "authority" where it should and it says, "name" where it should. You will never go wrong by taking the word of God literally and at face value. We should take it for what it says and stop looking for some secret code or deeper meaning in everything.

The Holy Ghost is never going to lead someone to believe that His name is not an essential part of our salvation. If you are under His authority you are going to teach what the Bible says and not twist scriptures to make it flexible for more people's circumstances. Obedience should be in all things including baptism. Water baptism is necessary also. I don't know which is the most important: Spirit baptism or water baptism. The scriptures teach us that we are to have both.

I don't mean to sound mean, but if you do not understand that name means authority, then you really have not studied this issue.

This article might help you....

Will God answer your prayer if you don't end with, "In Jesus' name, Amen?" Learn what praying in the name of Jesus really means.

I taught this week on the call of Abraham and the development of God's missionary call through the nation of Israel as they were responsible to communicate the truth of God to the cultures around them. They were given that great commission. The great commission didn't start in Matthew 28. It started with Abraham in Genesis 12, the first three verses there. "Abraham, chosen by God to raise up a nation who would then be God's priests to the world so that they would be a blessing to all of the nations."

They had a unique role in the great monotheistic religion. The Jews were supposed to reflect morality to the world. Israel was to witness to the name of God. When they talked about the name of God and witnessing to God's name, that does not mean that they were to let everybody know what they called God, "Yahweh." Their goal wasn't to cover the countryside with evangelists who just let everybody know what the right word for God was. It meant something different.

This is where I think Jehovah Witnesses really miss the point by making the big fuss about God's real name, Jehovah. Even the word Jehovah is a conflated name using portions of two different Hebrew words. We're not even sure what the tetragrammaton really was and what it was pronounced like. After you translate it into other languages, it has a different sound anyway.

What is surprising, though, is that Christians, have a very similar practice. We think we are doing something spiritual and end up doing something superstitious. In the process we don't really do the spiritual thing that we intended to accomplish. The "name of God" or "in the name of Jesus" means something different than repeating those words.

Read the New Testament. It says there, "Go out unto all the world, baptizing the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit." It says "Anything you ask in my name, that will I do." We have presumed that what that means is that we must add a phrase after both prayer and baptism in order to make it work. We dip them and say, "In the name of Jesus".

Just about every time we finish praying we tack this phrase on at the end, "In the name of Jesus. Amen." We do that because we were told to pray in the name of Jesus and God would answer. We expect that in doing so it seals the power of the prayer. I think that is superstitious because praying in the name of Jesus doesn't mean saying, "In the name of Jesus."

I read through the New Testament once looking for every teaching on prayer or example of one. It is a great practice to do. Go down to your local Bible bookstore, buy yourself a little pocket rocket, one of those small, palm-sized New Testaments. I like the New American Standard myself. Start with Matthew and go right through to Revelation. You can skim read if you like, but look for every example of prayer in the New Testament.

"Grace to you and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ." That would be an example of a prayer that you see oft times at the beginning and sometimes at the end of Epistles. Paul says, "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father", he reflects a prayer there. "I pray that the eyes of your heart might be opened d, that you would understand the length and breadth and depth of the love of Christ which is beyond comprehension." Paul gives a prayer there.

One thing you will notice when you highlight every prayer, every supplication on towards God that is uttered in the text of the New Testament is that you will never see a New Testament prayer that ends with the phrase "In Jesus' name. Amen," even though the same text teaches you to pray in Jesus' name. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw the conclusion that we are, first, to pray in the name of Jesus, and second, praying in the name of Jesus doesn't mean ending your prayer with the phrase "In the name of Jesus. Amen," because it is never done in the New Testament.

Ending prayers with that phrase might do nothing whatsoever to the efficacy of your prayer. I even submit that it might be hurting your prayer, depending on what you mean by the phrase.

What does it mean to pray in the name of someone if it doesn't mean saying, "In the name of..."? Here's what it means.

The name of someone, in the sense that the Bible authors used it, was what the person stood for, the substance of their character, or their authority. Israel was to witness to God's name, I mentioned. That means they were to witness to His character and who He is. Like it says in Exodus 34:6-7, "The Lord, God, compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in loving kindness and truth, who keeps loving kindness for a thousand." You see there a phrase that was repeated six times at least in the Old Testament. This is testifying to the name, or nature, or power, or substance of God. When we pray in the name of Jesus or baptize in the name of Jesus, what we are doing is acting in his authority, in his stead, according to their command, and consistent with their desires.

When we pray in the name of Jesus it might be better for us to drop the phrase "In the name of Jesus" altogether because generally we don't mean, "I am praying in the authority of Jesus Christ." You know what we probably mean when we say "In the name of Jesus. Amen" ? Practically speaking, it means the prayer is over. That is the Christian exit. Amen. Translated it means, the prayer is over, let's go do what we were doing, or let's eat.

There is power in praying in the authority of Jesus Christ, by the authority He has given you, consistent with His character, His desire, and His will. It's like when we say, "Stop in the name of the law." The policeman is saying that because he is standing in the place of the law and speaking on behalf of it. To the degree that he speaks for the law, then he can enforce the law and he has authority. When he steps outside of the law, he has lost his authority even though he still says, "Stop in the name of the law."

It might be better for us to start our prayers with that phrase instead of ending it. But don't even use that phrase. It would be better to start your prayers by saying, "Father, I come before you, not in my own power, not in my own righteousness, not in my own capability. I come before you in the authority of Jesus, your Son, who gave me access in this faith in which I stand because of His blood. I come on the merits of Jesus, not on my own merits." Ladies and gentlemen, that's what praying in the name of Jesus is. When you come on the basis of Jesus' merits, then you are heard for Jesus' sake. I think it would be better to start out that way and when you end, just stop praying when you are done. You don't have to say anything at the end.

If you are praying in a group and you don't want to leave people mystified as to what is happening, you could just simply say, "The prayer is over, let's eat," or ,"We're done, let's go on." The important thing is not what you say with your mouth. Dispense with the empty words. Get rid of them. Instead, approach the throne of God based on the authority of Jesus Christ. If you are thinking that way and that is your attitude, it doesn't matter what you say at the end of the prayer. God will hear you according to His promise.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I don't mean to sound mean, but if you do not understand that name means authority, then you really have not studied this issue.

This article might help you....

Will God answer your prayer if you don't end with, "In Jesus' name, Amen?" Learn what praying in the name of Jesus really means.

I taught this week on the call of Abraham and the development of God's missionary call through the nation of Israel as they were responsible to communicate the truth of God to the cultures around them. They were given that great commission. The great commission didn't start in Matthew 28. It started with Abraham in Genesis 12, the first three verses there. "Abraham, chosen by God to raise up a nation who would then be God's priests to the world so that they would be a blessing to all of the nations."

They had a unique role in the great monotheistic religion. The Jews were supposed to reflect morality to the world. Israel was to witness to the name of God. When they talked about the name of God and witnessing to God's name, that does not mean that they were to let everybody know what they called God, "Yahweh." Their goal wasn't to cover the countryside with evangelists who just let everybody know what the right word for God was. It meant something different.

This is where I think Jehovah Witnesses really miss the point by making the big fuss about God's real name, Jehovah. Even the word Jehovah is a conflated name using portions of two different Hebrew words. We're not even sure what the tetragrammaton really was and what it was pronounced like. After you translate it into other languages, it has a different sound anyway.

What is surprising, though, is that Christians, have a very similar practice. We think we are doing something spiritual and end up doing something superstitious. In the process we don't really do the spiritual thing that we intended to accomplish. The "name of God" or "in the name of Jesus" means something different than repeating those words.

Read the New Testament. It says there, "Go out unto all the world, baptizing the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit." It says "Anything you ask in my name, that will I do." We have presumed that what that means is that we must add a phrase after both prayer and baptism in order to make it work. We dip them and say, "In the name of Jesus".

Just about every time we finish praying we tack this phrase on at the end, "In the name of Jesus. Amen." We do that because we were told to pray in the name of Jesus and God would answer. We expect that in doing so it seals the power of the prayer. I think that is superstitious because praying in the name of Jesus doesn't mean saying, "In the name of Jesus."

I read through the New Testament once looking for every teaching on prayer or example of one. It is a great practice to do. Go down to your local Bible bookstore, buy yourself a little pocket rocket, one of those small, palm-sized New Testaments. I like the New American Standard myself. Start with Matthew and go right through to Revelation. You can skim read if you like, but look for every example of prayer in the New Testament.

"Grace to you and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ." That would be an example of a prayer that you see oft times at the beginning and sometimes at the end of Epistles. Paul says, "For this reason I bow my knees before the Father", he reflects a prayer there. "I pray that the eyes of your heart might be opened d, that you would understand the length and breadth and depth of the love of Christ which is beyond comprehension." Paul gives a prayer there.

One thing you will notice when you highlight every prayer, every supplication on towards God that is uttered in the text of the New Testament is that you will never see a New Testament prayer that ends with the phrase "In Jesus' name. Amen," even though the same text teaches you to pray in Jesus' name. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw the conclusion that we are, first, to pray in the name of Jesus, and second, praying in the name of Jesus doesn't mean ending your prayer with the phrase "In the name of Jesus. Amen," because it is never done in the New Testament.

Ending prayers with that phrase might do nothing whatsoever to the efficacy of your prayer. I even submit that it might be hurting your prayer, depending on what you mean by the phrase.

What does it mean to pray in the name of someone if it doesn't mean saying, "In the name of..."? Here's what it means.

The name of someone, in the sense that the Bible authors used it, was what the person stood for, the substance of their character, or their authority. Israel was to witness to God's name, I mentioned. That means they were to witness to His character and who He is. Like it says in Exodus 34:6-7, "The Lord, God, compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in loving kindness and truth, who keeps loving kindness for a thousand." You see there a phrase that was repeated six times at least in the Old Testament. This is testifying to the name, or nature, or power, or substance of God. When we pray in the name of Jesus or baptize in the name of Jesus, what we are doing is acting in his authority, in his stead, according to their command, and consistent with their desires.

When we pray in the name of Jesus it might be better for us to drop the phrase "In the name of Jesus" altogether because generally we don't mean, "I am praying in the authority of Jesus Christ." You know what we probably mean when we say "In the name of Jesus. Amen" ? Practically speaking, it means the prayer is over. That is the Christian exit. Amen. Translated it means, the prayer is over, let's go do what we were doing, or let's eat.

There is power in praying in the authority of Jesus Christ, by the authority He has given you, consistent with His character, His desire, and His will. It's like when we say, "Stop in the name of the law." The policeman is saying that because he is standing in the place of the law and speaking on behalf of it. To the degree that he speaks for the law, then he can enforce the law and he has authority. When he steps outside of the law, he has lost his authority even though he still says, "Stop in the name of the law."

It might be better for us to start our prayers with that phrase instead of ending it. But don't even use that phrase. It would be better to start your prayers by saying, "Father, I come before you, not in my own power, not in my own righteousness, not in my own capability. I come before you in the authority of Jesus, your Son, who gave me access in this faith in which I stand because of His blood. I come on the merits of Jesus, not on my own merits." Ladies and gentlemen, that's what praying in the name of Jesus is. When you come on the basis of Jesus' merits, then you are heard for Jesus' sake. I think it would be better to start out that way and when you end, just stop praying when you are done. You don't have to say anything at the end.

If you are praying in a group and you don't want to leave people mystified as to what is happening, you could just simply say, "The prayer is over, let's eat," or ,"We're done, let's go on." The important thing is not what you say with your mouth. Dispense with the empty words. Get rid of them. Instead, approach the throne of God based on the authority of Jesus Christ. If you are thinking that way and that is your attitude, it doesn't matter what you say at the end of the prayer. God will hear you according to His promise.

Sounds like alot of philosophy to me. There isn't one scripture I read in that to build your case. You asked in to go through the entire NT and find every prayer and see how they use the name of Jesus.

Acts3. 6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee:"In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth" rise up and walk.

Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Sounds like when they prayed they used the name literally!!!

1Cor.1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name

Why did Paul mention using his own name or did he mean in his personal authority. lol. This stuff is crystal clear. They literally invoked the name of Jesus when they prayed and baptized. I agree with you that many do it vainly without ever be connected to His person, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Us using the name is essential.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

What's the matter, Sean? Cat got your tongue?


You completely ignored the last line of my post....I was gone...sorry



So I was not including unbaptized people in my argument. You cannot run and hide now.

Im not sure if you believe a person is saved prior to water baptism, but I am sure you think the baptizer should shut up and let the baptizee do the talking.

The baptizer must keep his little "encantations"(saying the name Jesus) to himself...LOL