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Originally Posted by BrotherEastman
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You apparently missed my essential points, so I'll try again. I cited several wars having a "religious component" but not necessarily a religious cause, in order to prove that if a christian kills someone in war, it's unfair to claim such a war is IN THE NAME OF christianity. And by the same token, a war pursued by those who have (or who even promote) non-belief in any god are not killing IN THE NAME of atheism. Stalin killed people in the name of Stalin and Soviet nationalism, and territory. Hitler and nazis killed people in the name of Hitler, and nationalism, and territory, even if they were mostly Catholics and Lutherans who also hated Jews. A war may be, (and often IS) compatible with some religion, but that compatibility does not make it a religious war, especially when other more obvious factors are so easily seen, such as 1. Territory/Empire (WWII) 2. Political reformation (Communist Revolution, American Revolution!) 3. Historical grievances/Forced alliances (WWI.)
4.5.6. etc etc.
Did you even read the entire "Black Book of Communism" Wikipedia entry, which you posted? If so, hope you noticed the other scholar-critics who have published serious disagreements about the "Communist Black Books" claims of attribution about casualties. For example, one of several scholars thinks the tally-of-attribution is untenable, if not irrelevant.
<<Alexander Dallin writes that moral, legal, or political judgement hardly depends on the number of victims.[18] It is also argued,[19] that a similar chronicle of violence and death tolls can be constructed from an examination of
colonialism and capitalism in the 19th and 20th centuries.>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherEastman
Straw man????? Communism (atheist) killed more than Christians ever have.
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Nope, not the way you say it: "Christians ever have." We probably don't have to go back farther than about 1800 AD to exceed 100 million war deaths at the hands of Christians. Big wars rarely have a single cause or ideology behind it, and even a given "side" often does not have a unified ideology. Example, some Nazi generals had few beliefs in common with Hitler, and hated him to boot. Anyhow, WWI alone killed 37 million, and WWI was fought by Christians (with a few exceptions: for example the colonial properties such as British India which willingly did the bidding of their Christian owners, and the Russians who withdrew from Eastern Front after fighting Germans out of Russia.) But how far back you want to go? In some centuries, wars were "all believers, all the time."
Another example of wavering solidarity even in a big religious war--The Crusades.
In 1096, the First Crusade began marching toward Jerusalem to rescue Jerusalem, under muslim control for almost 400 years. The Pilgrims were told by Pope Urban II that whatever the Crusaders did in the future, including killing those they encountered in their journey--all their sins would be automatically absolved and they would go heaven, thanks entirely to having answered the call to march. So, doesn't that sound like a very "religious war," so far? (Yes.) Yet some of the leaders had other motives in conquering, having little to do with the cross. Big leader Baldwin, for example, was more interested in getting rich, and he did so. So, what about those (muslims) who then had to defend their home (Jerusalem) against the Crusader's sieges and swords? They were firstly protecting their own homes. Is that a religious cause? (No.) Additionally, the Crusaders ended up killing Byzantine Christians (Mission Creep!) After all, all their sins were automatically forgiven. (How convenient.) Shelby Foote tells the story in the Ken Burns Civil War TV series. A poor, bedraggled, propertyless southern kid in the South was asked by a journalist why he had volunteered to fight for the South, and presumably for the way of life that would preserve traditional plantation culture and slavery. The Southern rebel answered, "Because THEY (the northerners) are down HERE."
But yes, communism is demonstrably bad, bad, bad. I hope we agree there! I also fully understand why religious people of all stripes almost have to claim their god is on their side, and that the god approves of, or even delivered unto them their (your) personal ideology, such as "The American Way." As I sometimes remind y'all-- that's what the requirements of faith does to one's judgment.
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