I received a phone call about tithes

Originalist · #1 10-13-2014, 02:38 PM

Out of the blue today a very distraught brother called me.

He attends the church I stopped attending about a year ago. He informed me that the pastor has been hammering in tithes for the past two weeks. A couple of controversial statements have thundered from the pulpit both the past two Sundays.

Quote:

If you are struggling financially, all I have to do is go look at the books in the office and I know immediately why you are struggling.

and.....

Quote:

Tithe on what you want to make, not on what you make.

This man is a major play in the organization. It breaks my heart that an elder of so many years could be so tactless and clueless. He made the same remarks from the pulpit right before I left. About 18 months previously I had come to him to tell him that I had just experienced a 70% loss of income and that he could expect to see a decrease in my giving. I wanted him to know firsthand why one of his ministers was suddenly giving significantly less. I also informed him that for the past two years we had been tithing on the gross of our BUSINESS income BEFORE expenses were deducted instead of tithing on our salary. The only reaction I got from this was a raised eyebrow. Then soon after that the tithing sermons started and the same remarks were made then that were made the past two weeks according to the brother who called me.

So how did I get into all these financial struggles if I was really giving around 20% for two years?

The brother who called me is ready to leave the church and I do not blame him. On the one hand he wants to go to the pastor in love and ask him to clarify his remarks. But he knows that is basically suicide.

And God weeps.

Scott Pitta · #2 10-13-2014, 02:50 PM

I was treasurer of our local church for many years. The board processed church offerings, not the pastor. So our pastor does not know the giving habbits of any of the members. This frees him up to minister to members without fiscal influences.

It was a poor church in a poor county. We had a tight budget. We rarely took special offerings. If we managed the money wisely, there would be no need for pressure to give.

Tithes are 10% and nothing more. If members want to give extra for something special, like missions, that is their business.

Once a year we had a missions banquet. Pledges based on that dinner set the limits on our mission budget for the next year.

It took 2 signitures to write a church check. The pastor was not one of those certified to write a check. Monthly financial reports documented every financial transfer, both incoming and outgoing. These reports were reviewed by the church board.

Pastor was paid like an employee, just like in a business.

At the annual business meeting, a full detailed financial report was handed to every voting member.

Strong financial controls limit the influence filthy lucre has on a local church.

Originalist · #3 10-13-2014, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

I was treasurer of our local church for many years. The board processed church offerings, not the pastor. So our pastor does not know the giving habbits of any of the members. This frees him up to minister to members without fiscal influences.

It was a poor church in a poor county. We had a tight budget. We rarely took special offerings. If we managed the money wisely, there would be no need for pressure to give.

Tithes are 10% and nothing more. If members want to give extra for something special, like missions, that is their business.

Once a year we had a missions banquet. Pledges based on that dinner set the limits on our mission budget for the next year.

It took 2 signitures to write a church check. The pastor was not one of those certified to write a check. Monthly financial reports documented every financial transfer, both incoming and outgoing. These reports were reviewed by the church board.

Pastor was paid like an employee, just like in a business.

At the annual business meeting, a full detailed financial report was handed to every voting member.

Strong financial controls limit the influence filthy lucre has on a local church.

I doubt there are many pastors in the UPCI that would submit to such a system. Submission is for the pew potatoes, not the ministers.

good samaritan · #4 10-13-2014, 03:22 PM

Although I don't agree with making comments like the one's you posted it makes you wonder if the church is struggling itself financially. Pleading for money never sounds good from the pulpit. I agree with tithing, but it is a freewill thing and trying to scare people is not the way to teach it. It is really probably better for a pastor not to ever look at the books to see who is giving and how much.

When I first got in church I began tithing, but I never felt right about putting my name on an envelope with the amount. I felt like it was letting my left hand know what my right hand does. Later I learned that charitable giving could be written off so I have changed my stance on it. I do feel like if giving was more unanimous it would make it more a personal thing between us and God.

To many times givers get in a rut of giving and do it more out mechanics than doing it cheerfully as a part of their worship. Many local churches have (myself included) have been guilty of taking a (necessary) way of worship and made a system that many times has little to do with God. We need to get back to NT testament giving and not stop being legalistic givers.

My prayers go out to you and your friend. I hope God blesses your finances so that you can be a blessing to the kingdom of God and not only with giving in a local church, but in every avenue God leads. Try to not allow any root of bitterness to disconnect you from the Body of Christ. The adversary enjoys these scenarios to scatter the flock.

good samaritan · #5 10-13-2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

I was treasurer of our local church for many years. The board processed church offerings, not the pastor. So our pastor does not know the giving habbits of any of the members. This frees him up to minister to members without fiscal influences.

It was a poor church in a poor county. We had a tight budget. We rarely took special offerings. If we managed the money wisely, there would be no need for pressure to give.

Tithes are 10% and nothing more. If members want to give extra for something special, like missions, that is their business.

Once a year we had a missions banquet. Pledges based on that dinner set the limits on our mission budget for the next year.

It took 2 signitures to write a church check. The pastor was not one of those certified to write a check. Monthly financial reports documented every financial transfer, both incoming and outgoing. These reports were reviewed by the church board.

Pastor was paid like an employee, just like in a business.

At the annual business meeting, a full detailed financial report was handed to every voting member.

Strong financial controls limit the influence filthy lucre has on a local church.

I am a new pastor and I desire such a design for our church. one thing I wish people could do is give cash offerings unanimously. Then have multiple ushers to count the money together immediately after it is received in the office. People enjoy the tax write off, but it would eliminate incriminating who is giving what. Church leaders could then depend on the honor system for the office's held. If you hold a position and are not faithfully giving as God has prospered you then you should resign for yourself, and not have a pastor trying to play sheriff.

good samaritan · #6 10-13-2014, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

I doubt there are many pastors in the UPCI that would submit to such a system. Submission is for the pew potatoes, not the ministers.

I am a UPC minister and would love to have such a system. Pastors need to have as little to do with the church finances as possible (for their protection). There has been many ministers destroyed over church finances. Matter of fact if the people had more involvement in church finances people would then probably feel more passionately about giving. We somehow have made it seem like pastors own the church when they are just another part of it. Their job is to spiritually lead it, but many times there are people in the church far more qualified to hold the bag.

Miss Scarlett · #7 10-13-2014, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am a UPC minister and would love to have such a system. Pastors need to have as little to do with the church finances as possible (for their protection). There has been many ministers destroyed over church finances. Matter of fact if the people had more involvement in church finances people would then probably feel more passionately about giving. We somehow have made it seem like pastors own the church when they are just another part of it. Their job is to spiritually lead it, but many times there are people in the church far more qualified to hold the bag.

So what are your thoughts about our Pastor at our one business meeting a year, asking us to give the financial positions to his wife. ( Sec. and Treasurer ) and the church voting in agreement. I know this has gone on in this church for over 20 years? The tithes are strictly confidential between Pastor and Wife.

FlamingZword · #8 10-13-2014, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

So what are your thoughts about our Pastor at our one business meeting a year, asking us to give the financial positions to his wife. ( Sec. and Treasurer ) and the church voting in agreement. I know this has gone on in this church for over 20 years? The tithes are strictly confidential between Pastor and Wife.

The local church board of directors should appoint the church treasurer not the pastor.

Truthseeker · #9 10-13-2014, 07:51 PM

They say giving between you and God then they keep track of it.

good samaritan · #10 10-13-2014, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

So what are your thoughts about our Pastor at our one business meeting a year, asking us to give the financial positions to his wife. ( Sec. and Treasurer ) and the church voting in agreement. I know this has gone on in this church for over 20 years? The tithes are strictly confidential between Pastor and Wife.

Many smaller churches don't have qualified people to fill certain necessary roles in the church and pastors or pastors wives do it. If that be the case I personally believe that there should be a very very open door policy. Although relationships are built on trust and people should trust their church leadership, secrecy of finances could cause a reason to doubt. Why would there be a reason to withhold financial information from church members?