End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Yet Paul uses the order of creation in saying women should not usurp authority.

Now this makes sense. This is a woman's natural bent (wadr--"and your desire shall be for your husband" may read this way), and it is not pretty when you see it. But, any ignorant R pontifications notwithstanding, this may have nothing to do with the situation that may occur when men have essentially abdicated their authority (w/apologies to Sis A), which position we may have now. Could you comment there? Ty.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

God love ya, RDP.... you are so predictable, and funny. Yes, it is fun seeing the sideshow from your copy & paste remarks, with silly jokes and emoticons that never change.

it was kinda funny for 100 pages; but now it's just sad; gimme Bert any day.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Based upon your theology, infants went everywhere "preaching" the word of the Lord. LOL!!!

Can you cite where she said infants?

[Sister Alvear]

I am asking you to stop calling my posts stupid....you may not agree but I am not stupid....

[RJR]

Praxeas, I would not want to be identified with something so contextually, exegetically-hermeneutically flawed. You may want to pull this one off the thread. It is absolutely horrendous. Leave it up and it will get answered, at this moment I am involved in something else, but it is best not to just copy something online simply because it agrees with your position.

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

It is ironic that people twist Paul's words "I do not permit a woman to teach" (1 Tim. 2:12, NKJV) in order to make a blanket prohibition against women teaching men, when in 2 Timothy 1:5 Paul commends Lois and Eunice for teaching Timothy the faith!....

Yes, and go study what age a male was considered a hermeneutically



Women teach in every church...a song, in testimony of how they trusted God for something...women teach SS school classes and even pray in loud voices....they cannot find a scripture saying women do not preach....they want to make one say something it does not say...

Sis Alvear, what does this have to do with 2 Tim 3:15?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The first church went everywhere preaching the word of The Lord...

Originally Posted by Pliny

Based upon your theology, infants went everywhere "preaching" the word of the Lord. LOL!!!

Originally Posted by Esther

Can you cite where she said infants?

Did you not read the quote that was posted?

Apparently NOT. Otherwise you would not be asking for documentation as it was already given:

She is attempting, poorly, to equate the statement that the "church went everywhere preaching" as though this somehow "proves" women preachers in the early church. Therefore, if this is the evidence then based upon THAT logic ALL members went preaching including infants, toddlers, adolescents etc.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I am asking you to stop calling my posts stupid....you may not agree but I am not stupid....

I will ask you to stop making false allegations as though I or anyone else thinks women have no place in the church. This has been said over and over and over yet you have continued to make false allegations as though this has never been said:

Originally Posted by Pliny

This fundamental lack of knowledge has been seen consistently over and over in spite of the many times it has been said that women should witness and seek to be used in the gifts of the Spirit yet still there remains a stubborn willful ignorance to the facts. We even saw earlier where she made up her own facts that are patently false - the idea that Paul would never quote from the Talmud or the writer of Corinthians was quoting the Talmud (something to that effect) is patently false because the Talmud, specifically the Mishna was not began until the end of the 2nd century or the early third century.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...50#post1301550

Originally Posted by Pliny

One more time. All should witness, all should seek to be used of God and everyone has a place in the kingdom of God. Men are not any better than women and there is nothing more beautiful than a godly woman. Likewise, there is nothing more ugly than a woman trying to be a man or vice versa. There is a created order. Man was created first. The woman was deceived not the man. These are the arguments of Paul. The Elders, men, are tasked with feeding the flock of God - a bishop must be the husband of one wife.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...76#post1301576

Originally Posted by Pliny

Object lesson once again. Everyone should be encouraged to witness and be used in the gifts of the Spirit. Only men, and few of them, are called to be bishops/elders feeding the flock of God.

You just cannot seem to understand fundamental concepts which is an object lesson as to why women should not teach or preach - to act as bishops/elders.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...77#post1301577

Originally Posted by Pliny

Once again...
Everyone should witness and seek to be used in the gifts of the Spirit. The leading of the church, the teaching and preaching - feeding God's flock is the role of a man. The fact that so many women cannot understand that basic fundamental fact is an object lesson in why women should not be allowed to do so. The feeding of the flock is to the elders (Acts 20:17; 28). These elders are the bishops that were the husbands of one wife.

To take this logic would mean that no one needs a shepherd because they can all teach some body some thing. It is this spirit precisely that Got Miriam and Aaron into trouble.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...79#post1301579


(Exo 20:16 KJV) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

ABC Women's Institute, September 19, 1997

God commands all Christian women to be silent and not to teach men - or does he?

1Tim. 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Why this couldn't be a command for all Christian people through all time!

Questions to ask when confronted by difficult texts:

1. To whom was this epistle written?

2. What was the purpose of this epistle?

3. How does what Paul says in the verse relative to a woman teaching comport with what is said elsewhere in the New Testament?

4. What is said about women teaching, preaching or prophesying in other places in scripture?

1. Adam and Eve, in the beginning, were given equal responsibility. Genesis Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

This thinking is flawed due to the fact, it is in contradiction to passages that affirm the very principles the writer seeks to deny. 1 Cor 11:3 says the head of the woman is the man. Pardon me Praxeas, if head means equality are you affirming that man is in equality with Christ? The above quoted article seeks to assert that 1 Tim. 2:13 has noting to do with 1 Tim 2:12, is spite of the fact that Paul openly appeals that it is based upon the Divine order of creation. This article no doubt would also seek to dismiss the Divine description of weaker in 1 Pet. 3:7.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

2. Jesus used the ideal conditions that existed in the beginning to give a new testament command. Matt. 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Matt. 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Matt. 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What does this prove? When God provided Adam a wife, it was from his side, and she was at that point described as a "help meet," or one who assists or aids.

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

3. There is no time in scripture when women were forbidden to teach, preach or prophecy. God used women in all ages including but not limited to New Testament times. Old Testament Women who prophesied - Miriam - Numbers 26:59, 1Chron 5:29 ; Sarah - Genesis 21:10 cf Galatians 4:30 ; Deborah - Judges 4:4-6, Judges 5:1,7, 12, 13, 31 ; Huldah - 2Kings 22:14-20 ; Noadiah Neh 6:14 Etc. In addition to this the Old Testament forsees the Christian time when daughters would prophecy - Joel 2:28,29. And this in spite of the fact that the world was fallen and that the prediction of Genesis 3:16 had come to pass. Still, God used women. Why, then, should Christian women put interdicted?

The author certainly is not dealing with the prohibition of 1 Cor 14:34-35, or even 1 Tim. 2:11-12. as of this moment, which clearly opposes the above assertion that women were not forbidden to teach or preach. While he attempts to explain it away in the subsequent paragraphs, we will see how accurate it is in the following paragraphs.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

31 Tim 2:1-15

Women forbidden to teach men? Women to keep silence?

1Tim. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (why would Paul want to limit God's messengers to men only when he wants all the world to be saved?)

What would cause the writer to inject his agenda here? Having all men to be saved is absolutely no proof that a woman preaching is the only hope to accomplish the desire, neither does it mean all men will be saved. Seems God did not feel it was necessary to have a female priest in the OT, or chose a female apostle while here on earth, or give any Biblical prescription for a female bishop or deacon. Was this a divine mistake, Praxeas? Surely with what the author is seeking to establish, God could have better served he church that was in the wilderness with a few female priest?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (Paul is opposing the most radical feminism the world has ever seen. In Ephesus, many women believed that only a woman, because of her position as child-bearer<= could communicate ultimate truth. A woman was the sole interpreter. Many also believed that the woman was the originator of man, that she was the authentic one [authentein]) 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Why does this man bring up, "Paul was opposing the most radical form of feminism the world has ever seen from verse 5?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting (wrathful passion and dialogismos, dispute) .

9 In like manner also, that women (pray with uplifted hands) adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety (modesty and good sense); not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; (women retained one slave to arrange their hair while a second stood by with a whip to lash the unfortunate beautician - Juvenal, p. 75 of Kroeger - Apuleius considered braids seductive. Ostentation in dress was considered a sign of promiscuity in the ancient world)

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness (professing means witnessing) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn (Rabbi's forbid women to learn) in silence (The Rabbinic scholar was required to learn in silence - based upon Zech 2:13, Hab 2:20, Isa. 41:1,, were required to “be still” Ps 46:10. Rabbi Isaac said, “What should be a man's pursuit in this world? He should be silent. Silence was the duty of the learner. Silence and submission is a Near Eastern formula implying willingness to heed and obey instruction. The original appliication is one of attentiveness and receptivity to God. The command that women should learn is marked contrast to the foolish women, 1 tim 3:6,7, who are ever learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Paul would arm women with truth so that they might stand against error. Why would any true proclaimer of the gospel ever restrict who may learn or who might teach. Paul's concerns are for peace, propriety and a knowledge of the truth.) with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

There is no one asserting that a woman cannot learn, neither was Paul saying that a woman could not learn, as a matter of fact he implores her to learn with silence and all submission not exercising authority over the man. However, he just as strongly forbids her to TEACH. This passage says the direct opposite of what this blinded soul asserts. It still reads "I suffer not a woman to teach, NOR to usurp authority over the man," in spite of his weak attempts to explain it away.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (Paul attacks a highly unorthodox myth involving Adam, Eve, and the serpent) 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in (Paul defends feminine functions. dia, - during, throughout, within an attendant circumstance, while still possessing that function that most sets her apart from man) childbearing, if they (they, women and all Christians) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Did Paul believe that no woman should teach? May this scripture be used to teach a doctrine which is contradicted elsewhere?

Absolutely, Paul not only believed a woman was not to teach NOR to usurp authority over the man as verse 12 clearly implores, but he prohibits it! Also, we will see it is not contradictory as the following will prove.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Women prophesied. It was predicted that they would. Joel 2:28; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, They did! Acts 2:17 your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,...

Paul allowed prophecy from women 1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Prophecy is speaking to “edification [teaching or building up], exhortation and comfort.” 1Cor. 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Old Testament women prophesied, Deborah, Esther, Jael, Sarah (Genesis 21:The New Testament would not reduce the abilities of women to participate. The New Testament in which women as well as men were filled with the Spirit would not reduce women's opportunitites to participate.

Preaching is not prophesy. In 1 Cor 14 anyone IN the church could prophesy, speak in tongues, pray, sing psalms, have a revelation, yet in verse 34-35, a woman was not to do a certain type of speaking (translated 6 times preach or one of its cognates). Just as a man who spoke in tongues was to be silent in verse 28, if there was no interpreter, however he could speak to God and himself, clearly this man was not prohibited from making any sound, the prohibition was specific. Just as a woman has specific prohibitions as to teaching 1 Tim 2:12, and 1 Cor 14:34.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Women taught under Paul's ministry, Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

The prohibition in 1 Cor 14 was a woman speaking in the church (obviously cross referencing 1 Tim 2) teaching a man. What this writer does not emphasize is Aquila and Priscilla took him unto them, implying they took him aside. This is not Priscilla teaching him in the church a sermon, but rather witnessing along with her husband. A big difference between witnessing and preaching, anyone spirit filled is enabled as a witness, but not every spirit filled person meets the qualifications given for the offices of a deacon, bishop. Can you find one evangelist in the Bible who had a female name?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

1Cor. 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Even the Old Testament allowed women to learn, Deut. 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

Both Paul and Jesus allowed women to learn, Luke 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Conclusion: If Paul does not want some women to teach, it is not because they are women, but rather because they are unlearned, incompetent, or are teaching error. If the church should bar all incompetent teachers, it would have to bar men who teach that women should not teach.

Pitiful, this person is still equating learning with being a preacher.