Bott '14

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Ferd

for the record, Mr. Wilson didnt say "hey dont be offended your a liar"

He just said "you lie" which was the truth. Neither Mr. Wilson nor I care if the liar was offended.

[triumphant1]

Originally Posted by n david

Unfortunately, no. I've tried searching Google for any quote by Maxwell about a pastor crisis, problem or issue after three years, but no luck.

I certainly have not heard what exactly was quoted by SG at BOTT that JA then turned around to quote. But, I have some recollection of a quote that would be similar. I don't remember if it was maxwell or another one of those book gurus, but I do remember one of them saying something to this affect:

"If you take an established work, you really don't start pastoring your own problems until after the first three or so years. Most of the time during the first years you find yourself taking care of the problems that surfaced under the former administration. Once you cross a three or more year threshold, the problems you face are ones that arise under your leadership."

If my memory is correct, this is not saying, the problems are "your fault." It is saying that it takes time to work through the stuff that was already there but eventually you will only be managing situations that arise under your care.

Again, I absolutely remember being taught this--either by seminar or book--and I found it to be mostly true in my ministry. My first few years most every problem I dealt with was a mop up from the former pastor's tenure. Finally, I came to a place where every situation I dealt with was current to my tenure. Not my fault--just on my watch!

Botom line, if what I heard is the context--then JA got it way out of context!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I personally feel he was addressing Maxwell's quote and not the minister who quoted him. That is why he could say, "I know that quote came from Maxwell...whoever it is, don't get offended."

Not at all what he said, but continue trying to make excuses for it.

The problem here is he still said, "YOU'RE an idiot." As much as you try to play twister with his words, he did not say Maxwell is an idiot...he addressed the preacher, commented that he heard it from Maxwell, then said "YOU'RE an idiot."

[n david]

Originally Posted by triumphant1

I certainly have not heard what exactly was quoted by SG at BOTT that JA then turned around to quote. But, I have some recollection of a quote that would be similar. I don't remember if it was maxwell or another one of those book gurus, but I do remember one of them saying something to this affect:

"If you take an established work, you really don't start pastoring your own problems until after the first three or so years. Most of the time during the first years you find yourself taking care of the problems that surfaced under the former administration. Once you cross a three or more year threshold, the problems you face are ones that arise under your leadership."

If my memory is correct, this is not saying, the problems are "your fault." It is saying that it takes time to work through the stuff that was already there but eventually you will only be managing situations that arise under your care.

Again, I absolutely remember being taught this--either by seminar or book--and I found it to be mostly true in my ministry. My first few years most every problem I dealt with was a mop up from the former pastor's tenure. Finally, I came to a place where every situation I dealt with was current to my tenure. Not my fault--just on my watch!

Botom line, if what I heard is the context--then JA got it way out of context!

Thank you, it gives me more keywords and phrases to look up.

[Scott Hutchinson]

What JA said for the record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIiU6...ature=youtu.be

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by triumphant1

Again, I absolutely remember being taught this--either by seminar or book--and I found it to be mostly true in my ministry. My first few years most every problem I dealt with was a mop up from the former pastor's tenure. Finally, I came to a place where every situation I dealt with was current to my tenure. Not my fault--just on my watch!

Bottom line, if what I heard is the context--then JA got it way out of context!

Interesting. So, you were "mopping" up after the former pastor, but under "your" tenure, nothing was your fault.

Maybe JA didn't get that out of context. He seems to be commenting further, as have you.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

Not at all what he said, but continue trying to make excuses for it.

The problem here is he still said, "YOU'RE an idiot." As much as you try to play twister with his words, he did not say Maxwell is an idiot...he addressed the preacher, commented that he heard it from Maxwell, then said "YOU'RE an idiot."

I would agree with you, except that JA specifically acknowledges that the quote did not come from the minister, but from another source, Maxwell.

[triumphant1]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Interesting. So, you were "mopping" up after the former pastor, but under "your" tenure, nothing was your fault.

Maybe JA didn't get that out of context. He seems to be committing further, as have you.

I never said none of the problems were my fault. I have made enough leadership goof ups to create some issues to deal with. Once again, I am simply referring to a concept I remember being taught--that most of the problems a new leader faces are issues that arose during the former administration. Much like a new president coming in during wartime--the problem didn't start under his administration but he has a responsibility to finish it. By the time a second term comes around, there is very little talk about what the former administration faced. Everything is pretty much cast in a current tenure status.

My reference to "not my fault--just on my watch" was in regard to this context. That most of the problems I faced in my first years as pastor were already present when I took the church. But after three or so years, we had resolved those to the point that I was now pastoring situations that were revealed under my tenure.

It wan't about who was to blame but rather understanding the dynamics of solving problems either from the past or in a current context as a leader. Rollover situations can be difficult to handle because you may not be aware of all of the dynamics. Whereas current tenure situations may be difficult, but at least you were there and they happened under your watch s you have some insight.

I remember the teaching as being that it is easier to solve current tenure problems because there is not a former administration context to it. I will tell you, that the way it was presented by JA was way out of context to the teaching I remember--if it's the same--which I do not know.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by triumphant1

I never said none of the problems were my fault. I have made enough leadership goof ups to create some issues to deal with. Once again, I am simply referring to a concept I remember being taught--that most of the problems a new leader faces are issues that arose during the former administration. Much like a new president coming in during wartime--the problem didn't start under his administration but he has a responsibility to finish it. By the time a second term comes around, there is very little talk about what the former administration faced. Everything is pretty much cast in a current tenure status.

My reference to "not my fault--just on my watch" was in regard to this context. That most of the problems I faced in my first years as pastor were already present when I took the church. But after three or so years, we had resolved those to the point that I was now pastoring situations that were revealed under my tenure.

It wan't about who was to blame but rather understanding the dynamics of solving problems either from the past or in a current context as a leader. Rollover situations can be difficult to handle because you may not be aware of all of the dynamics. Whereas current tenure situations may be difficult, but at least you were there and they happened under your watch s you have some insight.

I remember the teaching as being that it is easier to solve current tenure problems because there is not a former administration context to it. I will tell you, that the way it was presented by JA was way out of context to the teaching I remember--if it's the same--which I do not know.

But, that isn't what you said.

My first few years most every problem I dealt with was a mop up from the former pastor's tenure. Finally, I came to a place where every situation I dealt with was current to my tenure. Not my fault--just on my watch!

[triumphant1]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But, that isn't what you said.

You failed to highlight the word MOST before every….just saying.

It's what I meant to say. I have tried to explain what I meant. MOST every problem I dealt with as a new pastor was a carry over from the former…I said most every NOT EVERY!! There were some big problems that cropped up in my first three years that were not present in the former administrations.

When I said, "Finally, I came to a place where every situation I dealt with was current to my tenure. Not my fault--just on my watch!" I was talking about the CONTEXT in which the original teaching I heard was focused on--tenure not fault. That at some point you get to pastor only the problems that crop up on your watch. Your tenure. There was NO assignment of blame in the teaching and that is what the last statement is referring to.

I will say for sure (and agree with JA) that not every problem was or is my fault--how can I be the blame for someone committing adultery or turning out to be homosexual, or dying in a car wreck? But I did have to deal with these situations during my tenure whereas they were not an issue under my predecessor because those people didn't go to church when he pastored it. They were on my watch.

I hope that clears up my contribution to this discussion.