End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

and once again...for our dear brother..
Paul was not teaching that women in general are to submit to men in general (Col 3:18). Paul was speaking about a wife not taking by force the leadership role over her husband.
It would be impossible for a woman to submit to every man...that would be total confusion. How could a woman submit to every man? There is balance in everything.

I submit to my husband...that is what the bible teaches me to do.

We all know that a woman is not to rule her husband...
That is the point Paul was specifying, that a woman should not "usurp authority over the man" (1Ti 2:12,} . This singles out an individual man, not mankind. It refers to a wife not being her husband's boss. Paul was saying that a wife is to let the husband take the leadership role in the church (Eph 5:22-24). She is to let her husband speak.

The word "usurp" in the next verse further strengthens this interpretation. "Usurp" means, "to seize and hold...by force or without legal authority" (American Heritage Dictionary). Paul was talking against a woman lording over her husband. We've all seen boisterous women with little mousy husbands. That's what Paul was speaking against.

This is similar to what Paul went on to say about the men in the next chapter. He told Timothy not to make a man a bishop who couldn't rule his own house. Likewise, he was saying that a woman should not speak in the church if she's trying to usurp her husband's authority. If a man's home isn't in order, he shouldn't minister, and if a woman's husband isn't in agreement with her saying something, she should be quiet.

The reason for Paul's instruction about the wife keeping quiet was to keep her from usurping authority over her husband. This does not forbid women to speak in the church if their husbands are in agreement.

Paul spoke of women praying and prophesying in the church services (1Co 11:5). Priscilla instructed Apollos (Ac 18:26), and Paul instructed the older women to teach the younger women (Tit 2:3-4). It appears that Paul did not forbid women to teach under appropriate circumstances.

In 1Ti 2:13-15, Paul continued his argument, using Adam and Eve as an example of a husband-and-wife relationship. This is not a "men are superior to women" passage of Scripture but a "husbands are the head of their wives" (Eph 5:23) passage.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

and really I do not think she will be saved in childbearing refers to women in general but refere to Mary...but that is just a personal opinion....just for something for us to think about...

Whoever he was referring to will continue to be debated, however, the reference would have to be in the context of husband/wife producing a child, which would therefore make the scriptural context in the setting of a husband/wife instruction.

[Pressing-On]

The only thing women need to keep in mind is not to be an autocrat. If she prays and prophesies in church, she is part of the spiritual entity. Prophesying is instructive, so she is teaching.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by rdp

Here we meet in agreement .


Yes, women can indeed declare God's Mind in prophetical genre, but biblical prophesy has never been a sermon from the Scriptures, but rather a spontaneous & lofty breaking-forth in primarily foretelling God's intents in a persons life.


In this strict sense we can say that women can "preach" per-se, but not in the sense of taking a text & expositing to men (or spittin' & sputterin' like a wild-comanche {SP?}). When said women does this she is outside of her God-allotted position & so is the pastor who allows her to do so - hence, "Call me gone" .

YOUR ESACT WORDS///women can indeed declare God's Mind in prophetical genre...

I don't mean to brag and in no way mean it to sound that way...Bit I don't remember a time that I have got up to give God's message that it was not something he gave me from HIS mind...
Deut. 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." --- 1 Timothy 2:7.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It takes all of God’s word to make us complete. If God did not want us to teach and obey certain portions of His word, He would not have given it to us.

I Thessalonians 2:13: "For in hearing us, you gave such heed, as if not hearing men, but as if God Himself were exhorting you."

We must all pray for fresh anointings...words directly from God each time we stand before the people...God has something to say in every service.

Scripture teaches us that the gifts and callings of God are given to all members of the body of Christ by the Holy Ghost (Rom. 12:3-8; I Cor. 12:4-11; Eph. 4:7-11; I Pet. 4:10-11). None of these gifts or offices is the exclusive prerogative of men.

God did not say thisj is for one but not the other....We are all one in Christ Jesus...and we are all subject to one another. Praying and prophesying were before the general body of Christ, including the men and were to be judged by the church.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

ya, that was very well put, SA. i have gotten in the habit of studying every translation of a passage that i can find, and i have to say that you have captured the essence, it seems to me.

[Sister Alvear]

I love to study...I love languages and history...

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Just got in from the doctor...and have just a minute...no I personally do not believe the Samaritan lady was a preacher however she did what few preachers have ever done! Hats off to the unknown women who went and brought a people to see Jesus....

She no doubt was well known in her city and I can see her in my minds eye, tunning through the cobblestone streets saying to to the top of her voice...COME SEE A MAN.... OH! for more like her....

Thank you. I agree.

[rdp]

Ok, so I clicked on the link you provided, and this is what it says:
anér: a man
Original Word: ἀνήρ, ἀνδρός, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anér
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-ayr)
Short Definition: a male human being, a man
Definition: a male human being; a man, husband.


Apparently you overlooked the fact that "husband" is merely a secondary meaning & ONLY if there are possessive markings in the text - which there are not in I Timothy 2.11-15 (which is also the reason hardly ANY linguists have adopted y'all quirky-esoteric "translation" ).


But, hey, I'm a fair man - I'll quote from renown linguist Dr. Joseph Thayer what you omitted from the same link :


ἀνήρ, ἀνδρός, ὁ, a man, Latinvir. The meanings of this word in the N. T. differ in no respect from classic usage; for it is employed

1. with a reference to sex, and so to distinguish a man from a woman; either a. as a male: Acts 8:12; Acts 17:12; 1 Timothy 2:12; or b. as a husband: Matthew 1:16; Mark 10:2; John 4:16ff; Romans 7:2ff; 1 Corinthians 7:2ff; Galatians 4:27; 1 Timothy 3:2, 12; Titus 1:6, etc.; a betrothed or future husband: Matthew 1:19; Revelation 21:2, etc.


Did ya' catch that? I Timothy 2.12 is translated under the category of "so to distinguish a man from a woman...a. as a male" - Not under heading "B" (i.e., the secondary meaning) of a "husband." Might need to learn hoe to read a lexicon before you chide me for my resources .


Right there in bold is the word husband. Now I know that you say that in the context that Paul couldn't possibly be talking about a husband. Well, that's your opinion. Let's look at that scripture in context again.


No, it is grammatical fact (as I'll once again demonstrate below) & not my "opinion" - you simply have an anti-biblical tradition you're desperately trying to protect & thus you've stubbornly dug in your heels. See it all the time .

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Now unless I overlooked something, I did not see either the word "husband" or "wife" in this nor the following translations. Hmmm, what do you see (with no formal training Koine' Greek) that alllllll of these professional linguists missed ?


New International Version
But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

New Living Translation
But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.

English Standard Version
Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

New American Standard Bible
But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

King James Bible
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But she will be saved through childbearing, if she continues in faith, love, and holiness, with good judgment.

International Standard Version
even though she will be saved through the birth of the Child, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, along with good judgment.

NET Bible
But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But she lives by her children, if they continue in faith and in love, in holiness and in modesty.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
However, she [and all women] will be saved through the birth of the child, if they lead respectable lives in faith, love, and holiness.

Jubilee Bible 2000
notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if she continues in faith and charity and sanctification and modesty.

King James 2000 Bible
Yet she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with propriety.

American King James Version
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

American Standard Version
but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

Darby Bible Translation
But she shall be preserved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with discretion.

English Revised Version
but she shall be saved through the childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

Webster's Bible Translation
Notwithstanding, she will be saved in child-bearing, if they continue in faith, and charity, and holiness, with sobriety.

Weymouth New Testament
Yet a woman will be brought safely through childbirth if she and her husband continue to live in faith and love and growing holiness, with habitual self-restraint.



The "context" is discussing man & woman (just as it's translated by literally hundreds of professional lingusist) - NOT "husband" & "wife." Why? Hmm, let's see, what did the foremost Greek scholar on the planet tell me again?


Gune and aner are words which mean 'adult female' and 'adult male' in their unmarked meanings. Only if there are sufficient contextual clues that husband and wife are in view do the words mean 'wife' and 'husband.' The definite article or 'idios' (one's own) or a possessive pronoun is required to show that husband and wife are in the text. None of these things occur in 1 Tim 2. The article occurs in 1 Cor 11, but only because it is syntactically required by the construction. Both passages are clearly talking about the Christian community in worship, which would of course involve single adults and married couples. Take a look at other passages that are clearly speaking about husband and wife--e.g., Eph 5, 1 Peter 3--and you'll see that they use these signals to note that husband and wife are in view.



Ignore it all y'all want - it isn't going to disappear .



This is my opinion too, because... no one of us can know exactly the mind of Paul as he was writing, but in looking at this verse from the context of the passage it was found in, Paul is addressing the husband/wife issue here, and which is why the word HUSBAND could certainly be used here (using your source as the reference for husband), as he mentions that the woman (wife) would be saved in childbearing. A single woman, or widow is not childbearing, a wife would be the only one childbearing. So, the context IS husband/wife.


No, the "context" can never violate the actual "text" - which says absolutely nothing about a "husband" or "wife," that is supplied by the pro-"woman-preacher" camp - no the biblical text itself.


The Scripture is simply saying that even though woman was the one to be "deceived" & "fall into transgression" - "nevertheless" (important term), normatively speaking, God has made a way-out for her via childbearing. This is what the actual text says, teaches, & is the very careful exegetical conclusion.


But, let's take your quirky interpretation for a moment. If this is talking about a "wife" not instructing her "husband" - then does God only "call" single women to "preach" ? Or, if somehow discussing the home-order, does that "order" suddenly do a 180 degree flip when they go to church ? Hmmm, strange that Paul appealed to the order of the home as the reflection of the order of the church, "(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)."


Sorry - Think I'll stick with the Bible & let y'all have your own private interpretation in order to mold your lifestyle preferences into God's Word .



Now, I realize that with all your study of Greek, that it is possible that "much learning hath made you mad" (really, I believe you are sincere, and don't hold that against you). However, you have your opinion about the verse, which is fine. We have ours. Opinions may never meet. But, you continue to choose to acknowledge the fact that Paul taught a woman can prophesy in the church, but get hung up on the "remain silent in church", but you have NEVER SAID how that can be possible.


LOL - I have addressed that issue ad nauseum on here. Good debate tactic though. Perhaps some will be naive enough to not see what you're doing, but you're merely feigning the high ground of "victory" in order to save face in light of a losing argument. This, you do by claiming I've not answered you when I've answered you over-over-over-over-over-over & OVER !


I have stated that it is possible when a wife is in submission to her husband, that being under his authority, if she has been given a word from the Lord, she can speak.



You are looking at the forest without seeing the trees. Jesus talked ALONE to the Samaritan woman. Why would he do that? How awful, for a MAN to be ALONE with a woman. And then, after He talked to her ALONE, what did she do?


What she did NOT do is "preach a sermon from the Scriptures" ! Here, since y'all are apparently overlooking the straight question & absolutely refusing to provide ANY response whatsoever, I'll ask it again: Please provide for me one biblical text, in either the OT or NT where a woman ever once preached to any congregation out of the Scriptures:______________?



Cont.....

[rdp]

Let's read the verse and see what she did:

John 4
27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?

28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

Kinda' missed something there didn't ya'? Here, let me point out a few things for you. First, notice that the apostles could not believe He was talking with a woman one-one-one: At this point His disciples came, and they were amazed that He had been speaking with a woman, yet no one said, "What do You seek?" or, "Why do You speak with her?" (NASB).


Did ya' catch that? Their reaction well demonstrates that it was not normal for a man to talking to a woman one-on-one - my whole point! Second, the difference between a modern women or man privately speaking with another man or woman is - ready? - Jesus Christ was sinless & we are not!


No man or woman has any business conversing with another man or woman for very long in private without their spouse either present or aware it (& I would hardly advise even that, except in extraordinary circumstances).

You see, Jesus talked with the Samaritan lady, alone, while his disciples were off buying food. Then, the Samaritan women, went and told the MEN to come and see a man who told me all the things I ever did.

And you know what... many of the Samaritans of that city believed for the saying of the woman.


And?? Do you think this somehow validates "women-preachers" in the set-in official capacity of the 5-fold ministry ? So now every one who tells any one about what Jesus did for them is automatically & officially in the set-in office of the 5-fold ministry ? You can't be serious?



She was the FIRST WOMAN EVANGELIST Jesus sent... and a very effective one at that.


Oh my goodness - I seriously hope this is some sort of a "chain-yanking-fest" here ? Specifically where can we read in this (or ANY OTHER BIBLICAL TEXT) that she took a text from the Scriptures & exposited the Word to the Samaritans:___________? Hear that background music ? You're simply assuming into the text what you cannot provide from the same - also called "circular reasoning" .

God Bless you Bro. RDP... but I feel sorry for you, that you would never accept a woman who has been sent by God to preach the gospel. If this woman had listened to the disciples, who were aghast that Jesus would talk to this woman alone, none of those Samaritans would have heard the word of God.

To obey GOD is better than to obey the traditions of men.


I could not agree more - "To obey GOD is better than to obey the traditions of men" - which is PRECISELY the reason I reject "women-preachers." I "obey" the following:


New International Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

New Living Translation
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.

English Standard Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

New American Standard Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

King James Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

International Standard Version
Moreover, in the area of teaching, I am not allowing a woman to instigate conflict toward a man. Instead, she is to remain calm.

NET Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For I do not allow a woman to teach, neither to usurp over a man, but she should be quiet;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest.

King James 2000 Bible
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American King James Version
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American Standard Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Darby Bible Translation
but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

English Revised Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Weymouth New Testament
I do not permit a woman to teach, nor have authority over a man, but she must remain silent.

World English Bible
But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.


Still there - & "ain't goin' no-where" - despite how hard y'all fight it !


Check back in later tonight, Lord willing & if I can find the time.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Just got in from the doctor...and have just a minute...no I personally do not believe the Samaritan lady was a preacher however she did what few preachers have ever done! Hats off to the unknown women who went and brought a people to see Jesus....

She no doubt was well known in her city and I can see her in my minds eye, tunning through the cobblestone streets saying to to the top of her voice...COME SEE A MAN.... OH! for more like her....

I agree whole-heartedly !