Truth Obscured

[Walks_in_islam]

My friend - these (54) locations are offered as reference only.

There is nothing in the Quran nor in the Hadiths / teachings that follow (including the definite and sure fact that Jesus, not Mohammad or anyone else, will return and rule the world) that in any way reduce the status of Jesus as example to be followed

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

To a Christian, this of course seems to reduce
Christ to a Son of Man. I would point out here
that although the words might conflict with a
Christian's sensibilities, the Qur'an does elevate
Christ to an example to be followed.

It is tempting, having accepted Christ
(as best as one is currently able)
to then suppose that the model that
Christ was presented to them in
is the only acceptable model, and/or
that Christ is dishonored somehow
with any other.

Who among us does not know a man
who never goes to church, yet seems to
just naturally apply Christ in their lives?
I have known only a couple such men
and women, maybe a few, but I have found
their quiet spirituality to have depth, and could not
say that because they refused the forms that
I was comfortable with, my version of Christ,
that they were not saved.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

My reply merely consists of probably what seem to you to be less than palatable passages and references from your book. Do you suppose that these were written so long ago as to be intended for the purpose of insulting you? I did not describe Jesus from the Quran, I described Him as the bible describes him. It is offensive to you only because the bible does not describe him as you or your ministers describe him and when the words are penned in front of you it appears to bring you....?....?...discomfort...?...?

Why and to who Jesus prayed to is no mystery. Why should it be?

Jesus' words, not mine:

"And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

This Mighty One - this is who Jesus prayed to and who Jesus taught his followers - you - to pray to. "ELI"

This is who Adam and Abraham and Noah and Lot and David and Solomon and Elijah and Elisha and every single referenced messenger or prophet prayed to and this is who Muhammad taught must be the only one who is prayed to.

The New Testament? Set up by the Council of Nicea? The whole history of mankind from Adam to today teaches one purpose for mankind and one God for mankind to serve. The teachings of Jesus reflect this exactly and to the letter. The teachings of the later church do not.

This is what you say on the subject of deeds: Salvation is by grace, not acts of penance, nor deeds

This is what the Quran teaches about deeds:

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

These words are not however from the Quran

This is also what the Quran teaches about deeds:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

These words are also not from the Quran

What else say you on the subject of deeds?

Why do you keep seasoning your reply with jabs and stabs, imagining wickedness where there is none? Let's have a conversation free from petty insults.

Perhaps you really don't know Who Christians believe Jesus is...He is both Son of God and Son of man. The scriptures you quoted are only half the picture. The Son of man would die on the cross on Calvary for my sins and your sins and the sins of the world.

The disciple Thomas would confess before all when he had met the risen Savior:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

No, Jesus wasn't a messenger; He is Immanuel. He isn't an example to follow, He is that Spirit that will be put in us during conversion (being Born Again) that causes us to be like Him.

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between the Old (First) Testament (Covenant) and the New (Second) Testament (Covenant). Otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did about the New Testament. The First was on tables of stone, the Second was on the fleshly tables of our hearts. The whole purpose of both WASN'T to serve God, but to be reconciled to God. Sin separated us from God. What Adam enjoyed in the Garden wasn't servitude but fellowship. Did Adam worship God? Yes, but not as a minion grovels before a master.

As far as deeds are concerned, the scriptures you quoted are way out of context...those who stood before the throne to be judged were those who were not taken in the 1st resurrection. Those in the 1st resurrection were already judged to be righteous. The ones before the throne were the ones left.

The second quote is, again, only half the picture. However, Jesus is instructing us concerning how we treat one another, not salvation by works, and in particular, how we treat the least among us is how we are actually treating Jesus.

A right Christian understanding of the purpose of works is that works perfect our faith and by works our faith is justified. Father Abraham is used as an example of this. Perhaps islam do not have a concept of the grace of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Walks_in_islam]

islam's teaching about Jesus are too incompatible to be in any way reconcilable with Christianity.

Was it I who declared irreconcilable differences in the middle of a discussion about similarities? I have said nothing of wickedness either, imagined or real.

The quoted verses are what they are and if they are incorrect then I am innocently wondering if they should be removed? From where were these incorrect statements added?

There is teaching by Jesus as to what constitutes salvation (also a nod to God/Eli by Jesus):

Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother."

"And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor"


Your take on the judgement is similar to your other explanations in that your explanation is not what the story says. The story later finishes with what is also in the Quran:

My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done

I will leave you to puzzle the purpose of the referenced book of life into which names were recorded at judgement.

Jesus stated that it is sin to boast of one's good deeds and that they were to be done in secret. Islam also teaches this thing.

Saul/Paul never met Jesus although there are (3) conflicting stories that he had. I otherwise have no interest in his teaching when his teaching contradicts Jesus and those who were with him (It is believed that James, who contradicts this faith thing, was one of 3 named James who DID know and walk with Jesus) Innocently wondering if you have read the book of James and the many references on faith vs works?

Originally Posted by HRea

Why do you keep seasoning your reply with jabs and stabs, imagining wickedness where there is none? Let's have a conversation free from petty insults.

Perhaps you really don't know Who Christians believe Jesus is...He is both Son of God and Son of man. The scriptures you quoted are only half the picture. The Son of man would die on the cross on Calvary for my sins and your sins and the sins of the world.

The disciple Thomas would confess before all when he had met the risen Savior:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

No, Jesus wasn't a messenger; He is Immanuel. He isn't an example to follow, He is that Spirit that will be put in us during conversion (being Born Again) that causes us to be like Him.

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between the Old (First) Testament (Covenant) and the New (Second) Testament (Covenant). Otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did about the New Testament. The First was on tables of stone, the Second was on the fleshly tables of our hearts. The whole purpose of both WASN'T to serve God, but to be reconciled to God. Sin separated us from God. What Adam enjoyed in the Garden wasn't servitude but fellowship. Did Adam worship God? Yes, but not as a minion grovels before a master.

As far as deeds are concerned, the scriptures you quoted are way out of context...those who stood before the throne to be judged were those who were not taken in the 1st resurrection. Those in the 1st resurrection were already judged to be righteous. The ones before the throne were the ones left.

The second quote is, again, only half the picture. However, Jesus is instructing us concerning how we treat one another, not salvation by works, and in particular, how we treat the least among us is how we are actually treating Jesus.

A right Christian understanding of the purpose of works is that works perfect our faith and by works our faith is justified. Father Abraham is used as an example of this. Perhaps islam do not have a concept of the grace of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[HRea]

Does islam have the concept of Immanuel?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

islam's teaching about Jesus are too incompatible to be in any way reconcilable with Christianity.

Was it I who declared irreconcilable differences in the middle of a discussion about similarities?

No, you were not the one who declared this...I did, specifically because islam denies that Jesus is the Son of God, islam denies that Jesus was crucified and died for our sins, and islam denies that Jesus is Immanuel. These form a great gulf between the two. If you can reconcile these, then I'll withdraw my assertion.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The quoted verses are what they are and if they are incorrect then I am innocently wondering if they should be removed? From where were these incorrect statements added?

Let's discuss the Bible verses that you have posted. Did you read them contextually? Did you read them at all or did you post from another site? You probably googled some search and these appeared. Fair enough if that's what you did as google is a good starting point when exploring a subject you're not familiar with. However, here are 2 verses that you included about the "Son of man":

Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I really don't think you meant to include either of these (or many of the others) since they demonstrate the deity of Jesus Christ, especially His authority to forgive sins. Many of the ones you listed reveal why Jesus is Immanuel.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

There is teaching by Jesus as to what constitutes salvation (also a nod to God/Eli by Jesus):

Your take on the judgement is similar to your other explanations in that your explanation is not what the story says.

Actually, in my response I forgot that you don't understand the Law of the Old Testament, the transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament ushered in by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the spiritual nature of salvation in the New Testament, the effectual workings of the Grace of God, or the whole New Birth experience. I sometimes make assumptions and these assumptions aren't always correct. You've always been islam so you wouldn't have the foundational Christian teachings. My bad.

If you assume that Jesus is only a messenger, then several Bible scriptures will seem out of place, confusing, or applied incorrectly. However, if you come to understand Jesus as Immanuel, then the meaning of many of the Bible verses will become clear.

Does islam have the concept of Immanuel?

[Walks_in_islam]

I see the issue of deeds appears to be closed. LOL

James is not a long book, nor is Revelation. Do you to take the time to study then return to correct the misguided view that your deeds do not matter.

Since you chose twice to ignore specific passages I gave them all to you. The "sitting on the right hand" thing appears to have been passed over along with the "there is only one who is good, that is God". The rest of the list was passed in amusement to allow you to pick through them and choose the ones that support your view. Thank you for your validation however since you chose to come in here and speak it does not look good, from an objective review, to pass over specific passages from your book,, and leave then unanswered by closing them then offering contradictory ones. I reference the passages that mirror the teachings of the Quran. That you can reference contradictory passages only highlights that fact that (and this is deeply unfortunate) your book is full of contradictions.

I well understand the woven fabrication that is created out of bits and pieces of your book. I also understand the parts that are brushed aside (swept under the rug). It APPEARS to me that many of the swept parts mirror the teachings of the Quran. Innocently wondering if they should be removed?

You and I and all of us will bow to God one day. I will reiterate that Jesus will be exactly where Jesus said he will be and where the Quran says he will be on that day. At the right hand of God.

Your deeds will be read to you (I see that book of life thing got brushed over too) and you will be stunned to know, though you shouldnt because your book said it would be this way, that your deeds will determine where you will be sent.

Believing this enough to perform every single deed with intention to serve and glorify God is what faith is.

Originally Posted by HRea

Does islam have the concept of Immanuel?


No, you were not the one who declared this...I did, specifically because islam denies that Jesus is the Son of God, islam denies that Jesus was crucified and died for our sins, and islam denies that Jesus is Immanuel. These form a great gulf between the two. If you can reconcile these, then I'll withdraw my assertion.


Let's discuss the Bible verses that you have posted. Did you read them contextually? Did you read them at all or did you post from another site? You probably googled some search and these appeared. Fair enough if that's what you did as google is a good starting point when exploring a subject you're not familiar with. However, here are 2 verses that you included about the "Son of man":

Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I really don't think you meant to include either of these (or many of the others) since they demonstrate the deity of Jesus Christ, especially His authority to forgive sins. Many of the ones you listed reveal why Jesus is Immanuel.



Actually, in my response I forgot that you don't understand the Law of the Old Testament, the transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament ushered in by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the spiritual nature of salvation in the New Testament, the effectual workings of the Grace of God, or the whole New Birth experience. I sometimes make assumptions and these assumptions aren't always correct. You've always been islam so you wouldn't have the foundational Christian teachings. My bad.

If you assume that Jesus is only a messenger, then several Bible scriptures will seem out of place, confusing, or applied incorrectly. However, if you come to understand Jesus as Immanuel, then the meaning of many of the Bible verses will become clear.

Does islam have the concept of Immanuel?

[HRea]

Your reply is full of insults, it is very disappointing. You have chosen to completely ignore my responses and not focus on the main conflicts that I have highlighted many times for you. Instead, your response with insults and LOL's is quite childish while I'm trying to engage in a serious conversation.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I see the issue of deeds appears to be closed. LOL

No, the subject not closed.

However, I see that because you have chosen 3 times to completely ignore the HUGE conflicts, and that you fully accept them to be irreconcilable, realizing that Christianity can in no wise accept islam's version of Jesus Christ. Instead you try to distract so that others won't notice the HUGE conflicts between the Bible's version of Jesus and the koran's corrupted version.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

James is not a long book, nor is Revelation. Do you to take the time to study then return to correct the misguided view that your deeds do not matter.

I told you what James said about faith and works. You did not respond then.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Since you chose twice to ignore specific passages I gave them all to you. The "sitting on the right hand" thing appears to have been passed over along with the "there is only one who is good, that is God".

I addressed the passages you posted. Are you not reading my posts? You are the one not responding to the main conflicts. This is because you cannot. The koran has a very skewed view of who Jesus is...and outrightly lies about His crucifixion and death on the cross.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The rest of the list was passed in amusement to allow you to pick through them and choose the ones that support your view.

So you were not serious about this discussion...passed in amusement...do you sit and chuckle because you cannot answer the HUGE conflicts? Do you LOL when I say that Jesus is Immanuel and ask if islam even has the concept of Immanuel? Are you thoroughly entertained when I bring up redemption through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation? Are you ROFL when the Bible declares that it is the spirit of anti-christ to deny that Jesus is the Son of God?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I well understand the woven fabrication that is created out of bits and pieces of your book. I also understand the parts that are brushed aside (swept under the rug). It APPEARS to me that many of the swept parts mirror the teachings of the Quran. Innocently wondering if they should be removed?

You are not innocently wondering...and you have been unable to answer any of the HUGE conflicts I've given (except one - you rightly said that the koran plainly denies that Jesus is the Son of God). So which book is correct? Either Jesus is Immanuel (Bible) or He isn't (koran). Either Jesus is the Son of God (Bible) or He isn't (koran). Either Jesus was crucified and died on Calvary (Bible) or He didn't (koran). Either Jesus has the power to forgive sins and redeem mankind (Bible) or He can't (koran).

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You and I and all of us will bow to God one day. I will reiterate that Jesus will be exactly where Jesus said he will be.

No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

where the Quran says he will be on that day. At the right hand of God.

I'm not sure which version of the koran you're reading, since no where does it make such statement. In fact, the koran places Jesus in the 2nd heaven, lower than both Moses and Abraham. You should probably get a more accurate version to read.

[bbyrd009]

Hrea, you post eloquently, and it pains me to see
the difference you see; a wall, where I am not finding one.
You are just some unpronounceable words away from grasping
that you are both agreeing in loud voices.

[Walks_in_islam]

Your answer

Originally Posted by HRea

Your reply is full of insults, it is very disappointing. You have chosen to completely ignore my responses and not focus on the main conflicts that I have highlighted many times for you. Instead, your response with insults and LOL's is quite childish while I'm trying to engage in a serious conversation.

I am not highlighting the conflicts. I am highlighting the similarities. I have not however engaged in labelling or namecalling

No, the subject not closed.

No? Then perhaps you will explain why you say you are saved by faith and James/Jesus wrote that you are saved by works based on faith / following the commandments and John wrote that you are judged by your works

However, I see that because you have chosen 3 times to completely ignore the HUGE conflicts, and that you fully accept them to be irreconcilable, realizing that Christianity can in no wise accept islam's version of Jesus Christ. Instead you try to distract so that others won't notice the HUGE conflicts between the Bible's version of Jesus and the koran's corrupted version.

The intolerance of christianity is well-documented. Including in our Constitution which was written in part as answer to it. So I am not stunned to hear that differences in belief are irreconcilable by a christian. Your comment above is noted and accepted. My answers or comments are made directly to you with little thought as to what others may or may not think of them


I told you what James said about faith and works. You did not respond then.

I was so unsure about this that I went back and looked for passages from James. I was unable to find any in your posts. This is probably the reason that I failed to respond to them.


I addressed the passages you posted. Are you not reading my posts? You are the one not responding to the main conflicts. This is because you cannot. The koran has a very skewed view of who Jesus is...and outrightly lies about His crucifixion and death on the cross.

<grin> I must unfortunately take a short trip this morning. When I get back however we will look over the (4) stories of the crucifixion and resurrection together and see if we can determine, from your book, what happened. Do you to know you are assisgned homework and this is what it is: read carefully each version from each book. Then: come back and tell me what exactly happened. (3) of them, since they are different from any (4th) have to be "outrightly" untrue.


So you were not serious about this discussion...passed in amusement...do you sit and chuckle because you cannot answer the HUGE conflicts? Do you LOL when I say that Jesus is Immanuel and ask if islam even has the concept of Immanuel? Are you thoroughly entertained when I bring up redemption through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation? Are you ROFL when the Bible declares that it is the spirit of anti-christ to deny that Jesus is the Son of God?

I am serious about the similarities between the two books. I am amused by the grabbing of some other text or passage in some cases by the same writer that penned the similarities used to example irreconcilable differences

You are not innocently wondering...and you have been unable to answer any of the HUGE conflicts I've given (except one - you rightly said that the koran plainly denies that Jesus is the Son of God). So which book is correct? Either Jesus is Immanuel (Bible) or He isn't (koran). Either Jesus is the Son of God (Bible) or He isn't (koran). Either Jesus was crucified and died on Calvary (Bible) or He didn't (koran). Either Jesus has the power to forgive sins and redeem mankind (Bible) or He can't (koran).

The Quran pens Jesus as a messenger and warner. I said this.


No doubt in my mind whatsoever.


I'm not sure which version of the koran you're reading, since no where does it make such statement. In fact, the koran places Jesus in the 2nd heaven, lower than both Moses and Abraham. You should probably get a more accurate version to read.

You know what, I probably mis-spoke. YOUR book and Jesus himself places Jesus at the right hand of the one Jesus prayed to and taught his followers word for word to pray to and who Muhammed insisted that his followers pray to for all time. The Quran simply highlights judgement by deeds, as Revelation does.

[Walks_in_islam]

Back. Long day. Where were we?

Day of judgement. What is this about lower heaven?

From the Quran concerning the day of judgement (the Quran is silent on the precise location of Jesus)

Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my
mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say
what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it.
Thou knowest what is in my heart . . .”

From the Quran concerning the message of Jesus

(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you
part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your
Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

From the Bible concerning the message of Jesus:

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good (added warning to your audience: You say what they believed, Jesus said what they had done) will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

This is a better match to what the Quran says than to what you say. Just sayin'.

Some other statements by Jesus, similar to what the Quran also says:

"I can of Myself do nothing."
"My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me."
"The word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."
"I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges."
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
"The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority"
"The word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

So many more I am tired of typing them

[Walks_in_islam]

Very eloquently as it turns out. Earns serious discussion and respectful nod.

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Hrea, you post eloquently, and it pains me to see
the difference you see; a wall, where I am not finding one.
You are just some unpronounceable words away from grasping
that you are both agreeing in loud voices.