Truth Obscured

[bbyrd009]

Well, it is weird how what is written might not be
what is read; I run into trouble there a lot.
Prolly I'm just sensitized.

[Walks_in_islam]

I was lightly amused at Muslims being discounted in the Quran itself. Otherwise there is no contention?

"Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians" seem to be (4) different groups to me.

"Those who believe" are Muslims. This same statement is repeated in 2:62, 5:29, and 22:17 and reference (4) separate groups each time. The Quran gently but firmly teaches that there is to be no quarrel with these people (sigh - would that our Imams teach this more since the time was taken to record it there and perhaps there would be a tolerance between believers?)

It is true that not much is known about the Sabians as there are bits and pieces of fragmented history. La ilahah il Allah (There is no God but Allah) was said to be the fundamental basis of their teaching, as is for the Jews and for Muslims and for (some? probably most?) Christians.

Originally Posted by HRea

It was not my intention to give that impression. When walks_in_islam responded with LOL, I thought I would too to keep things from spiraling into contention. I guess I overused them and will be more judicious in my use of "LOL" in the future.

[Walks_in_islam]

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.

Did Jesus teach to fear God and example to worship God and does the Bible say that he taught this or not? Did Jesus himself pray to Allah (excuse me ELI) or not?

Originally Posted by HRea

1. We're not cursing muslims; you keep trying to make this personal but it isn't

2. allah may or may not be the antichrist, you'll need to ask him yourself about this; but the koran has teachings that are certainly antichrist in their nature

3. agreeing or disagreeing - it's by open discussion that we learn from each other and come to a better understanding. The Bible does teach that "iron sharpens iron".

Following up on #2 above, there are 3 very important aspects where the Bible and the koran conflict, and these 3 are HUGE (definitely biggies):

1. the koran teaches that Jesus was not crucified and nor did He die for sins of any, for none can bear the sins of another; the Bible teaches that the crucifixion of Jesus is the central theme of New Testament salvation and His shed blood is the atonement for our sins; Jesus bore our sins on the cross. The Bible states through Paul that if Christ was not crucified, then our faith is vain.

2. the koran teaches that allah had no son, neither was he planning to have a son; the Bible teach that God gave His only begotten Son for our salvation. The Bible teaches that it is antichrist to deny the Son. In addition, the revelation of who Jesus is (Emmanuel, God with us, God manifest in flesh) has nor corresponding concept in the koran. The koran teaches that the very idea of having a begotten son, let alone manifesting himself in flesh is offensive to allah.

3. the koran teaches salvation by works; the Bible teaches salvation by Grace

[bbyrd009]

Again, I guess I read with infant's eyes,
but I started the Qur'an about the time
I started posting here, and I have been
mostly struck by how the Qur'an seems to
include anyone who believes in One God,
in contrast to what I read on this forum:

74:31
And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire,
and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,-
in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty,
and the Believers may increase in Faith,-
and that no doubts may be left for the
People of the Book and the Believers...

seems pretty clear to me.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.

Did Jesus teach to fear God and example to worship God and does the Bible say that he taught this or not? Did Jesus himself pray to Allah (excuse me ELI) or not?

@Walks_in_islam, let's deal with the 3 conflicts above before beginning a new line of questions. You quoted the 3 conflicts in your reply but didn't respond to them. It's important that we deal with them since they reveal our perception of Jesus Christ, specifically conflicts #1 and #2. Unless I know what your view of Jesus Christ is, in light of your islam beliefs, it would be very difficult for me to know how to respond to you question.

[bbyrd009]

Ok, but please remember that his response will be so many words,
at the end of the day.

HOLY HUMOR and troubled times, people of all faiths should remember these four great religious truths: 1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's Chosen People. 2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. 3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world. 4. Baptists do not recognize each other at the liquor store.

[Walks_in_islam]

It is because this conflict is in your own mind.

It is not difficult to respond to my question at all. You have a book and you should be able to respond from your book if the words in that book match your response. They do not and they will not.

Our book says as you accurately pointed out that Allah has no son nor no need of a son nor ever begot a son and also says that Jesus was spoken into existance and sent as a warner/messenger by Allah himself.

Your book uses the phrase "son of man" in the gospels in the following locations:

Matthew 8:20 9:5,6 10:23 11:19 12:8
12:32 12:40 13:37 13:41 16:13-17
16:27 16:28 17:9 17:12 17:22,23
19:28 20:18,19 20:28 24:27 24:30 x2
24:37 24:39 24:44 25:31 26:2
26:24 x2 26:45 26:64

Mark 2:10 2:28 8:31 8:38 9:9
9:12 9:31 10:33,34 10:45 13:26
14:21 x2 14:41 14:62

Luke 5:24 6:5 6:22 7:34 9:22
9:26 9:44 9:58 11:30 12:8
12:10 12:40 17:22 17:24 17:26
17:30 18:8 18:31-33 19:10 21:27
21:36 22:22 22:48 22:69 24:7

John 1:51 3:13 3:14 5:27 6:27
6:53 6:62 8:28 9:35-38 12:23
12:34 x2 13:31

This is who Jesus himself said he was. You would overwrite Jesus' own words then?

There is no conflict from the beginning of time until today between believers who believe and can state that there is one God and no other beside Him. The (4) mentioned have, within themselves, those who hold to that belief.

Who was the Son of God?

Solomon? 6: He said to me, `It is Solomon your son who shall build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my Son, and I will be his Father.

David? Words to his father Nathan: I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son; I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you, but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom for ever and his throne shall be established for ever.'" In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.

There is more. The "sons of God" were present at creation. The "sons of God" saw that the "daughters of man" were fair and had children with them. Somehow "only son" got penned into a passage in the midst of all these other sons. What is this?

Originally Posted by HRea

@Walks_in_islam, let's deal with the 3 conflicts above before beginning a new line of questions. You quoted the 3 conflicts in your reply but didn't respond to them. It's important that we deal with them since they reveal our perception of Jesus Christ, specifically conflicts #1 and #2. Unless I know what your view of Jesus Christ is, in light of your islam beliefs, it would be very difficult for me to know how to respond to you question.

[bbyrd009]

To a Christian, this of course seems to reduce
Christ to a Son of Man. I would point out here
that although the words might conflict with a
Christian's sensibilities, the Qur'an does elevate
Christ to an example to be followed.

It is tempting, having accepted Christ
(as best as one is currently able)
to then suppose that the model that
Christ was presented to them in
is the only acceptable model, and/or
that Christ is dishonored somehow
with any other.

Who among us does not know a man
who never goes to church, yet seems to
just naturally apply Christ in their lives?
I have known only a couple such men
and women, maybe a few, but I have found
their quiet spirituality to have depth, and could not
say that because they refused the forms that
I was comfortable with, my version of Christ,
that they were not saved.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

It is because this conflict is in your own mind.

Our book says as you accurately pointed out that Allah has no son nor no need of a son nor ever begot a son and also says that Jesus was spoken into existance and sent as a warner/messenger by Allah himself.

There is more. The "sons of God" were present at creation. The "sons of God" saw that the "daughters of man" were fair and had children with them. Somehow "only son" got penned into a passage in the midst of all these other sons. What is this?

I see in your reply that instead of discussing doctrines and teachings, you needed to personally insult me. This is sad for that to happen in the exchange of ideas.

Have you been islam all your life or are you a recent convert? If you believe the koran's view of who Jesus is, you would not have understood my answer to your question. Why and to whom Jesus prayed is directly connected to the incarnation of Jesus and the mystery of Immanuel.

From your reply, the Jesus you have described is NOT the same Jesus of the New Testament, but a corrupted shadow of the One Whom Christians believe in, making islam and Christianity incompatible. Let me identify why I say this:

1. Jesus is Immanuel - God with us, not simply a messenger, and His purpose for coming was to redeem man with His Own precious blood. Whether you hold to the trinitarian view of God or the Oneness, Jesus is Immanuel, God with us. To deny His deity, as islam has done, is the spirit of anti-christ. Christians are warned against this very teaching. The incarnation is hoped for by the Jews and recognized as already happened by the Christians.

2. Jesus was crucified, died, and rose again, bearing my sins (and the sins of the whole world) on the cross. He stated several times that this was His purpose in coming into this world, and His death, burial and resurrection is the gospel message, the power of God unto salvation. It is an incredible affront to Christian believers to attempt to change Jesus' purpose from being our propitiation into one of simple messenger. His teachings and commands are important, but the WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT hinges on the blood of Jesus Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection.

3. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, not just another son of God. Yes, many have borne the title or have been referred to as a son of God, but none are God's Begotten Son - only Jesus. Herein is also a marvel mystery revealed - Jesus is both man and God. His flesh is the Begotten Son, His Spirit is Deity. The incarnation of God also caused all darkness to be confused as it did not understand this type of a man being being born.

4. Salvation is by grace, not acts of penance, nor deeds to impress God, but by His grace. The work of God in us is revealed by our character (fruit) and our actions (works), but character and actions do not determine salvation.

islam's teaching about Jesus are too incompatible to be in any way reconcilable with Christianity.

[Walks_in_islam]

My reply merely consists of probably what seem to you to be less than palatable passages and references from your book. Do you suppose that these were written so long ago as to be intended for the purpose of insulting you? I did not describe Jesus from the Quran, I described Him as the bible describes him. It is offensive to you only because the bible does not describe him as you or your ministers describe him and when the words are penned in front of you it appears to bring you....?....?...discomfort...?...?

Why and to who Jesus prayed to is no mystery. Why should it be?

Jesus' words, not mine:

"And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

This Mighty One - this is who Jesus prayed to and who Jesus taught his followers - you - to pray to. "ELI"

This is who Adam and Abraham and Noah and Lot and David and Solomon and Elijah and Elisha and every single referenced messenger or prophet prayed to and this is who Muhammad taught must be the only one who is prayed to.

The New Testament? Set up by the Council of Nicea? The whole history of mankind from Adam to today teaches one purpose for mankind and one God for mankind to serve. The teachings of Jesus reflect this exactly and to the letter. The teachings of the later church do not.

This is what you say on the subject of deeds: Salvation is by grace, not acts of penance, nor deeds

This is what the Quran teaches about deeds:

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

These words are not however from the Quran

This is also what the Quran teaches about deeds:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

These words are also not from the Quran

What else say you on the subject of deeds?

Originally Posted by HRea

I see in your reply that instead of discussing doctrines and teachings, you needed to personally insult me. This is sad for that to happen in the exchange of ideas.

Have you been islam all your life or are you a recent convert? If you believe the koran's view of who Jesus is, you would not have understood my answer to your question. Why and to whom Jesus prayed is directly connected to the incarnation of Jesus and the mystery of Immanuel.

From your reply, the Jesus you have described is NOT the same Jesus of the New Testament, but a corrupted shadow of the One Whom Christians believe in, making islam and Christianity incompatible. Let me identify why I say this:

1. Jesus is Immanuel - God with us, not simply a messenger, and His purpose for coming was to redeem man with His Own precious blood. Whether you hold to the trinitarian view of God or the Oneness, Jesus is Immanuel, God with us. To deny His deity, as islam has done, is the spirit of anti-christ. Christians are warned against this very teaching. The incarnation is hoped for by the Jews and recognized as already happened by the Christians.

2. Jesus was crucified, died, and rose again, bearing my sins (and the sins of the whole world) on the cross. He stated several times that this was His purpose in coming into this world, and His death, burial and resurrection is the gospel message, the power of God unto salvation. It is an incredible affront to Christian believers to attempt to change Jesus' purpose from being our propitiation into one of simple messenger. His teachings and commands are important, but the WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT hinges on the blood of Jesus Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection.

3. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, not just another son of God. Yes, many have borne the title or have been referred to as a son of God, but none are God's Begotten Son - only Jesus. Herein is also a marvel mystery revealed - Jesus is both man and God. His flesh is the Begotten Son, His Spirit is Deity. The incarnation of God also caused all darkness to be confused as it did not understand this type of a man being being born.

4. Salvation is by grace, not acts of penance, nor deeds to impress God, but by His grace. The work of God in us is revealed by our character (fruit) and our actions (works), but character and actions do not determine salvation.

islam's teaching about Jesus are too incompatible to be in any way reconcilable with Christianity.