Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, can I make a statue in loving honor of God and adore it? If not, why not?

If one doesn’t mind their neighbor sleeping with their wife, can they sleep with their neighbor’s wife if all are agreed? If not, why not?

Just because we're not UNDER the Law does not mean we can live anyhow..lol

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Your two questions are works of the flesh per Galatians, so that should answer your question. See, it's not about the law now, it's about either walking in the Spirit or after the flesh.

I want you to notice that DRUNKENNESS is mentioned as part of works of the flesh. Strictly speaking, drunkenness is not condemned by the 10 commandments, so if you go by the 10, it would be okay to get drunk.

Under the law of the Spirit, we don't get drunk...lol

Originally Posted by Aquila

You’re not getting it either. LOL I’m not UNDER the Law. I’m led of the Spirit to obey in liberty. I’m FREE to obey, not free by obeying. lol

Hey bro, if you wanna set aside one day for your rest, that's perfectly fine.

What troubles me is when you say people are in blatant rebellion to God's word, even though the bible teaches that we are not required to observe any sabbath dayS (Col 2:16). Paul said dayS. That includes any type of sabbath day listed in the OT.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Yes, don't violate the spirit of the commandment is what I'm saying. If you don't violate the spirit of the command, there's no way you will be violating the letter of the command.
It's not possible to physically commit adultery without lust first occurring in the heart.
So if you don't violate the spirit of the command, it's not even possible to violate the letter of the command.

Amen!

That’s the crux of my argument.

If you don’t violate the spirit of the command, there’s no way you will be violating the letter of the command.

However, YOU are saying that this doesn’t apply to the Fourth Commandment. I’m saying that it does. If one doesn’t violate the spirit of the Seventh Commandment (by lusting) they will not be able to break the letter of the Seventh Commandment (by committing adultery). Also, if one doesn’t violate the spirit of the Fourth Commandment (by choosing to rest in Christ) they will not be able to break the letter of the Fourth Commandment (by neglecting the seventh day).

This is exactly why the Ante-Nicene Fathers (prior to Nicea) stated:

"Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God, - to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or demons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence; it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for the idleness of the hands." (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 7, p. 413, 1951 edition).

To quote you again:

If you don't violate the spirit of the command, there's no way you will be violating the letter of the command.

So let’s review the letter of the command:

Exodus 20:8-11
{20:8}Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. {20:9} Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: {20:10} But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: {20:11} For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is,] and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Your own logic will lead you to Sabbath Keeping.

Welcome aboard! LOL

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen!

That’s the crux of my argument.

If you don’t violate the spirit of the command, there’s no way you will be violating the letter of the command.

However, YOU are saying that this doesn’t apply to the Fourth Commandment. I’m saying that it does. If one doesn’t violate the spirit of the Seventh Commandment (by lusting) they will not be able to break the letter of the Seventh Commandment (by committing adultery). Also, if one doesn’t violate the spirit of the Fourth Commandment (by choosing to rest in Christ) they will not be able to break the letter of the Fourth Commandment (by neglecting the seventh day).

Ha, I'm saying we can't serve in the letter and the spirit together. It's either one or the other according to Rom 7:6 and 2 Cor 3:6

Ex 20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The letter of the law was to set aside that day and rest from all your works. The spirit of that law was not the day itself. The key point was the rest from your works. This is why Jesus told us "Man was not made for the sabbath. The sabatth was made for man."

Resting from your works is the main point of that command because God rested from his works on that day. Again, it is not the day but the rest from the works.

Heb 4
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

When we believe on Jesus Christ cease from our works, we enter into God's rest. This is the sabbath. This is the spirit of the sabbath day spoken of
in Exodus 20.
So if we serve in the newness of the spirit, we ought not to try to serve in the oldness of the letter again.

So as long as the spirit of the law is fulfilled, we're good.

The key is we can't serve in the letter and the spirit simultaneously. It's ONE or the OTHER.

Originally Posted by Aquila

So let’s review the letter of the command:

Exodus 20:8-11
{20:8}Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. {20:9} Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: {20:10} But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: {20:11} For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is,] and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Your own logic will lead you to Sabbath Keeping.

Welcome aboard! LOL

Again, it's either serving in the newness of the spirit or the oldness of the letter. I can't do both according to Rom 7:6 and 2 Cor 3:6

Since, I have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and ceased from my own works, I am serving in the newness of the spirit. I can't observe a day 'cause that would be serving in the oldness of the letter.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Just because we're not UNDER the Law does not mean we can live anyhow..lol

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Your two questions are works of the flesh per Galatians, so that should answer your question. See, it's not about the law now, it's about either walking in the Spirit or after the flesh.

How does one know that those things are sin? Do they not violate the spirit of the Ten Commandments?

I want you to notice that DRUNKENNESS is mentioned as part of works of the flesh. Strictly speaking, drunkenness is not condemned by the 10 commandments, so if you go by the 10, it would be okay to get drunk.

Under the law of the Spirit, we don't get drunk...lol

You found me out! LOL

No, seriously…

If one cherishes the spirit of the Ten Commandments, how can one possibly become drunken, knowing that drunkenness inhibits judgment and leads one to violate God’s commandments???

Any wise soul wishing to keep God’s commandments would never allow them selves to be in a position wherein judgment is inhibited and violation of God’s commandments is likely.

Hey bro, if you wanna set aside one day for your rest, that's perfectly fine.

What troubles me is when you say people are in blatant rebellion to God's word, even though the bible teaches that we are not required to observe any sabbath dayS (Col 2:16). Paul said dayS. That includes any type of sabbath day listed in the OT.

Not necessarily. Even Polycarp (the disciple of John the Apostle) saw Paul as speaking with regards to the “sabbaths” (feast days and new moons) of the Jewish calendar… not the Sabbath day. We know that Polycarp kept the seventh day Sabbath and even commented upon it in his writings. He also endorsed the commandments of God. He disagreed with changing the date of Passover to a Sunday (you’ll note people who venerate Sunday at the time accepted this change). Polycarp’s church spoke about Polycarp and the Sabbath. And historians can verify that Sabbath keeping was still happening throughout Asia Minor (Polycarp’s region) until the fifth century at the very least.

Again, in the Ante-Nicene Fathers we read:

"Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God, - to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or demons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence; it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for the idleness of the hands." (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 7, p. 413, 1951 edition).

So…if it wasn’t as cut and dry to those who knew John the Apostle and Polycarp… if it continued to be observed UNTIL SUNDAY WAS FORCED UPON THE CHURCH BY EDICT… why argue so strongly? I’m not as convinced as you are.

Most importantly though, we have to consider the words of Jesus:

Matthew 5:17-19
{5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For
verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of
these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall
be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven.

Are you breaking the commandment and teaching men to do so?

You even admitted that by obeying the spirit of the law one cannot possibly break the letter of the law. Are you?

I’m not saying that you are in rebellion. I’m just asking the questions.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Ha, I'm saying we can't serve in the letter and the spirit together. It's either one or the other according to Rom 7:6 and 2 Cor 3:6

Ex 20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The letter of the law was to set aside that day and rest from all your works. The spirit of that law was not the day itself. The key point was the rest from your works. This is why Jesus told us "Man was not made for the sabbath. The sabatth was made for man."

Hold on. I’m going to hold your feet to the fire a little. You stated that one cannot obey the spirit of the law and break the letter of the law. You even gave an example regarding adultery. You explained that if a man doesn’t lust, he can’t break the letter of the command and commit adultery.

So we both agree about the spirit of the Fourth Commandment. Yet you don’t believe that obeying the spirit of the Fourth Commandment leads to obedience to the letter of the Fourth Commandment as you did with the Seventh Commandment. You’re playing fast and loose with this.

And yes, the Sabbath was made for “man”, meaning “mankind”, not just the Jews. Why not embrace this gift given you?

Resting from your works is the main point of that command because God rested from his works on that day. Again, it is not the day but the rest from the works.

You’re dodging my question. You said that if we obey the spirit of the law there is no way we’d violate the letter of the law. However, you’re not even applying this to the Fourth Commandment.

Heb 4
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

When we believe on Jesus Christ cease from our works, we enter into God's rest. This is the sabbath. This is the spirit of the sabbath day spoken of
in Exodus 20.
So if we serve in the newness of the spirit, we ought not to try to serve in the oldness of the letter again.

So as long as the spirit of the law is fulfilled, we're good.

The key is we can't serve in the letter and the spirit simultaneously. It's ONE or the OTHER.

Again, it's either serving in the newness of the spirit or the oldness of the letter. I can't do both according to Rom 7:6 and 2 Cor 3:6

Since, I have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and ceased from my own works, I am serving in the newness of the spirit. I can't observe a day 'cause that would be serving in the oldness of the letter.

Polycarp, John the Apostle’s disciple, would disagree with you. As do I.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

How does one know that those things are sin? Do they not violate the spirit of the Ten Commandments?

I just quoted it out. They are the works of the flesh. Yes, they do violate the ten commandments. But some of the things listed there are even in the ten commandments.

Originally Posted by Aquila

You found me out! LOL

Lol

Originally Posted by Aquila

No, seriously…

If one cherishes the spirit of the Ten Commandments, how can one possibly become drunken, knowing that drunkenness inhibits judgment and leads one to violate God’s commandments???

Actually, I could be drunk without violating any of the 10 commands. You can get drunk in your room, and then you'll pass out and wake up the next day without violating a single of those commands.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Any wise soul wishing to keep God’s commandments would never allow them selves to be in a position wherein judgment is inhibited and violation of God’s commandments is likely.

Ha... But I only have to get drunk in my room..lol. That way, I don't get to violate any of the 10 commands.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Not necessarily. Even Polycarp (the disciple of John the Apostle) saw Paul as speaking with regards to the “sabbaths” (feast days and new moons) of the Jewish calendar… not the Sabbath day. We know that Polycarp kept the seventh day Sabbath and even commented upon it in his writings. He also endorsed the commandments of God. He disagreed with changing the date of Passover to a Sunday (you’ll note people who venerate Sunday at the time accepted this change). Polycarp’s church spoke about Polycarp and the Sabbath. And historians can verify that Sabbath keeping was still happening throughout Asia Minor (Polycarp’s region) until the fifth century at the very least.

Again, in the Ante-Nicene Fathers we read:

"Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God, - to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or demons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence; it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for the idleness of the hands." (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 7, p. 413, 1951 edition).

So…if it wasn’t as cut and dry to those who knew John the Apostle and Polycarp… if it continued to be observed UNTIL SUNDAY WAS FORCED UPON THE CHURCH BY EDICT… why argue so strongly? I’m not as convinced as you are.

Ok, first off, I have not said that Sunday is the day of worship. I said that there's no day of worship. We are to worship God in spirit all the time.

If the group of believers I meet with decide it's more convenient to meet on Wednesday or Saturday, it's fine with me. Worshiping God has nothing to do with the day is what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Most importantly though, we have to consider the words of Jesus:

Matthew 5:17-19
{5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For
verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of
these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall
be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven.

Are you breaking the commandment and teaching men to do so?

You even admitted that by obeying the spirit of the law one cannot possibly break the letter of the law. Are you?

I’m not saying that you are in rebellion. I’m just asking the questions.

Notice, Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law. Jesus lived under the Law and fulfilled the Law. So, yes, the Law did not pass away until ALL of it (both the Law of God and Law of Moses) was fulfilled.
Today, when we walk in the Spirit (Gal 5), the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Rom 8:4)

So, I'm not teaching men to break God's commands. I'm teaching men to obey by believing on Jesus Christ. When we believe on Jesus Christ, we are obeying God's commands.

1 John 5:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Notice, God's command is to believe on Jesus Christ. And then as a result of our belief, we enter into God's rest (Heb 4:3)

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Hold on. I’m going to hold your feet to the fire a little. You stated that one cannot obey the spirit of the law and break the letter of the law. You even gave an example regarding adultery. You explained that if a man doesn’t lust, he can’t break the letter of the command and commit adultery.

So we both agree about the spirit of the Fourth Commandment. Yet you don’t believe that obeying the spirit of the Fourth Commandment leads to obedience to the letter of the Fourth Commandment as you did with the Seventh Commandment. You’re playing fast and loose with this.

You’re dodging my question. You said that if we obey the spirit of the law there is no way we’d violate the letter of the law. However, you’re not even applying this to the Fourth Commandment.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I never said obeying the spirit of the law LEADS to obeying the letter of the law. I was trying to show you that obeying the spirit of the law is more important than obeying the letter of the law. In one of my previous posts, I said "The DEMANDS of Grace FAR OUTWEIGHS the DEMANDS of the Law" You said you think we should keep both the letter and the spirit of the law. I'm saying it's just the spirit that counts.

I gave the example of adultery to show that one cannot break the letter of the law without breaking the spirit of the law. However, one can break the spirit of the law without breaking the letter of the law.

And I quoted from Rom 8:6 where Paul said we cannot obey the letter of the law and the spirit of the law together. It's one or the other.

So I'm not playing fast and loose..lol

What do you think about Paul saying we cannot obey the letter and the spirit together

Rom8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Also, you never addressed the fact that Paul said we're delivered from the Law

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If one cherishes the spirit of the Ten Commandments, how can one possibly become drunken, knowing that drunkenness inhibits judgment and leads one to violate God’s commandments???

Any wise soul wishing to keep God’s commandments would never allow them selves to be in a position wherein judgment is inhibited and violation of God’s commandments is likely.

But the Law never said to not get drunk. And where there is no law, there's no sin... So I'll just get wasted in my room...haha

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Yes, don't violate the spirit of the commandment is what I'm saying. If you don't violate the spirit of the command, there's no way you will be violating the letter of the command.

Aquila, I think the emboldened statement I made here is what caused you to think I was saying keeping the spirit of the law would lead to keeping the letter of the law.

I guess I chose the wrong choice of words. Maybe this would have been better:

If you are not IN VIOLATION of the spirit of the law, there's no way you are IN VIOLATION of the letter of the law.

So for the case of adultery, if you are not lusting, there's no way you are in adultery. Hope this clarifies my position better

[Aquila]

TGBTG,

Have you every read a book titled Grace Walk? I think you'd like it. The author, Steve McVey, also wrote a book titled, "The 101 Lies Taught in Church Every Sunday." Here's a youtube clip of him and his angles. Tell me what you think? A lot of my friends in the Baptist church really like him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVa3XWfmDDc