Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

As far as 1 Cor 11 is concerned, the world WAS doing that, though. The custom of everyone in that part of the world was a woman wearing a veil to indicate submission. And Paul also noted that any woman felt it was a shame to be bald, in the world or not.

From what I have read and studied, I found that, from the earliest times, the custom of wearing a veil was not observed by all peoples of the Middle East. I haven't ever read otherwise.

[papapraiz]

We have discussed those that have left the UPC. Who are the young progressive pastors and leaders in the organization and where do they pastor?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

From what I have read and studied, I found that, from the earliest times, the custom of wearing a veil was not observed by all peoples of the Middle East. I haven't ever read otherwise.

The muslims show that, and if we study 1 Cor 11, the note is that even the world honoured the covering, and the christian women were starting not to. It was all about offending outsiders. Check the commentaries. They show a good witness of that.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Look up in the greek what the word covering means in 1.COR. 11.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The muslims show that, and if we study 1 Cor 11, the note is that even the world honoured the covering, and the christian women were starting not to. It was all about offending outsiders. Check the commentaries. They show a good witness of that.

I was looking at a couple of things in I Cor 11.

(2)Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances (paradosis), as I delivered (paradidomi) them to you.

"ordinances" (paradosis/root: paradidomi) being defined as "tradition" - the idea of being handed down. He uses the same definition in verse 23, "...that which I also delivered..." (paradidomi), regarding the Lord's supper, and in II Thessalonians 2:15, "...hold the traditions (paradosis).

I don't think that Paul could possibly be pointing to conformity to whatever customs were going on in Corinth. It was too diverse for that. To say he is actually wanting them to look like the world, I cannot agree with that at all. And he couldn't be wanting conformity to Jewish custom, because the women, generally, covered their faces. He is not asking that of them. He seems to be attempting to set out a particular custom for the church as is indicated by verse 16. In his correction to them, he seemed to be addressing what they were doing wrong and saying that it was not a custom in the churches of God.

(16) "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."

One other note, even though not all women of every culture wore veils, they certainly did allow their hair to grow long. As a sign of disgrace it was cut short. Prostitutes in the Jewish, Greek and Roman culture would sometimes cut their hair as a sign of their disgrace. Even though veils were not universal to all customs, long hair certainly was.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by papapraiz

We have discussed those that have left the UPC. Who are the young progressive pastors and leaders in the organization and where do they pastor?

Clarify, who are who?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I was looking at a couple of things in I Cor 11.

(2)Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances (paradosis), as I delivered (paradidomi) them to you.

"ordinances" (paradosis/root: paradidomi) being defined as "tradition" - the idea of being handed down. He uses the same definition in verse 23, "...that which I also delivered..." (paradidomi), regarding the Lord's supper, and in II Thessalonians 2:15, "...hold the traditions (paradosis).

This does not contradict what I proposed. He taught them to not offend the sinners who, themselves, knew women ought to wear veilings. He taught about offenses in 1 Cor 10. Check it out.

I don't think that Paul could possibly be pointing to conformity to whatever customs were going on in Corinth. It was too diverse for that.

I believe you this might be said due to the bent of the pentecostal tradition that clothing is meant to distinguish us from the world.

To say he is actually wanting them to look like the world, I cannot agree with that at all.

I am saying that his point is to not offend, not urging them to look like the world. Following him as he followed the Lord, as mentioned in the first few verses, falls in context after chapter 10 which speaks of offending others.

And he couldn't be wanting conformity to Jewish custom, because the women, generally, covered their faces. He is not asking that of them. He seems to be attempting to set out a particular custom for the church as is indicated by verse 16.

The only thing different about the church and the world here is that MEN AND WOMEN covered themselves in Jewish custom, not just women as in the church.

In his correction to them, he seemed to be addressing what they were doing wrong and saying that it was not a custom in the churches of God.

(16) "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."

One other note, even though not all women of every culture wore veils, they certainly did allow their hair to grow long. As a sign of disgrace it was cut short.

I disagree. It was a shame to embalden themselves. Shorn and shaven does NOT simply mean to cut short. It means to make bald with scissors and razor, respectively.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This does not contradict what I proposed. He taught them to not offend the sinners who, themselves, knew women ought to wear veilings. He taught about offenses in 1 Cor 10. Check it out.

The context of the offense that I Cor 10 is referencing is the sacrificing to idols and the food served at any feast you may be invited to. He says to eat, unless the host is specifically saying that the food had been offered in idol worship. I don't think that has anything to do with chapter 11. Although, the principle of offending is a good principle to teach.

I believe you this might be said due to the bent of the pentecostal tradition that clothing is meant to distinguish us from the world.

I am saying that his point is to not offend, not urging them to look like the world. Following him as he followed the Lord, as mentioned in the first few verses, falls in context after chapter 10 which speaks of offending others.

The only thing different about the church and the world here is that MEN AND WOMEN covered themselves in Jewish custom, not just women as in the church.

How could they be offending such a diverse culture by taking off their veils? The Greek women didn't wear them during prayer. Why would they care?

He is teaching the opposite of Jewish custom then, with the men. He is telling them to NOT be covered during prayer and you are saying they were covered in Jewish custom. Also, Jewish custom dictated the covering of the face for the women. He isn't demanding that of them in the passage. So, that is a bit confusing.

I disagree. It was a shame to embalden themselves. Shorn and shaven does NOT simply mean to cut short. It means to make bald with scissors and razor, respectively.

You could be right if Paul is logically explaining that you have to use scissors to shorten the hair enough to shave it all off. Because, there is no way you can make someone totally bald with a pair of scissors. A razor, yes. Scissors, no.

If he is not implying that, then he is meaning to cut it short or shave it all off. It looks like, to me, that is what he is meaning, because of how he instructs the men to have short hair. He doesn't say bald.

[Socialite]

Why do discussions about 1 Cor 11 give me the hives and make my stomach turn?

I'd start with this piece of consideration for ANY epistle. We are eavesdropping into one side of a letter, where (most often) Paul is correcting something happening in the community (time of worship, of in general). Does it sound like, or is it congruent with history, that Paul is dealing with an issue of women cutting their hair?

The concept of modesty has much to do with general society (the world). It's general society that helps define things culturally, it gives them meaning, etc... At some point, general society saw men wearing britches. At some point, women wearing their own type of britches. Some cultures still wear head coverings. Some shake hands with the right, some would find it offensive to shake with the right hand. Some cultures find it offensive for a woman to show her ankles. Some cultures bow when they greet someone, others they kiss, and still others they offer a hand. The church was instructed toward modesty (appropriateness) and was admonished to faithfully represent the Graciousness of God that has been made known to us. We do that, not by bidding a culture war, but by making peace with all men -- and if there be any "culture war" it has far more to do with debunking worldly thinking (rejecting social/economic systems as ways to value others, rejecting hatred, rejecting jealousy, wrath, caring for the poor, living honorable lives --- which means, valuing one's body, not giving it to multiple sexual partners, honoring the partner God has provided, or honoring one's own body until such a time as God provides, not living a life as a drunkard, but kept together, sober, vigilant, always seeking that which is good, right and lovely.... yes, that was the longest run-on sentence ever.. the end.)

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Why do discussions about 1 Cor 11 give me the hives and make my stomach turn?

I'd start with this piece of consideration for ANY epistle. We are eavesdropping into one side of a letter, where (most often) Paul is correcting something happening in the community (time of worship, of in general). Does it sound like, or is it congruent with history, that Paul is dealing with an issue of women cutting their hair?

The concept of modesty has much to do with general society (the world). It's general society that helps define things culturally, it gives them meaning, etc... At some point, general society saw men wearing britches. At some point, women wearing their own type of britches. Some cultures still wear head coverings. Some shake hands with the right, some would find it offensive to shake with the right hand. Some cultures find it offensive for a woman to show her ankles. Some cultures bow when they greet someone, others they kiss, and still others they offer a hand. The church was instructed toward modesty (appropriateness) and was admonished to faithfully represent the Graciousness of God that has been made known to us. We do that, not by bidding a culture war, but by making peace with all men -- and if there be any "culture war" it has far more to do with debunking worldly thinking (rejecting social/economic systems as ways to value others, rejecting hatred, rejecting jealousy, wrath, caring for the poor, living honorable lives --- which means, valuing one's body, not giving it to multiple sexual partners, honoring the partner God has provided, or honoring one's own body until such a time as God provides, not living a life as a drunkard, but kept together, sober, vigilant, always seeking that which is good, right and lovely.... yes, that was the longest run-on sentence ever.. the end.)

I'm not the one that steered the conversation this way. Some are advocating that there is no distinction in dress taught in the Bible and I disagree. The distinction the Apostles taught was "modesty". So, yes, Christians have a distinction from the world and it involves more than just our conversation/behaviour.

Anytime you try to talk about this subject, it gets taken right back to "standards", which is very annoying. LOL! I just wanted to talk about what the Apostles were teaching.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

The Apostles preached a distinction.

I'm sure the whole "world" wasn't doing this:

1 Timothy 2:9 "I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety," (NIV)

1 Timothy 2:9 "And I want women to be modest in their appearance." (NLT)

1 Timothy 2:9 "I would like for women to wear modest and sensible clothes." (CEV)