Illegals

[shag]

What do you do with illegal immigrants coming to church, after you give them the gospel?

Several options…

Do or don’t address it?

Not the job of “the church”?

Leave it alone?

Tell them to get themselves legal or something will be done?

Pastors pastoring congregations that 3/4 of them are illegal!?

[Esaias]

Paul harbored a runaway slave. Convinced him to go back and convinced the owner to go easy on him. But didn't require him to go back (contrary to God's law which nobody cares about these days) nor did he turn him in to the Roman authorities.

Of course that was just one guy being dealt with, not an army of invaders like in Judges 6, which is just more of that pesky old testament "does not apply today except for the antichrists in Palestine so lets give them billions of dollars per year to help secure their borders, it's the Christian thing to do while leaving ours wide open. Cuz, you know, it's the Christian thing to do."

[aegsm76]

We do not have any (that I know of) at my current church.
We had a lot at my former church.
We set up training sessions for them on how to become "legal" and many did.
We also had two that went back and started churches in Mexico, which we helped support.

[Esaias]

I know it's looked down upon in these parts of the religious world, but...

... what does THE BIBLE say about immigration? What is the LAW OF GOD on the subject? If we could identify that, then we as Christians might have some kind of realistic AND sanctified solution to the problem. Well, assuming we as Christians still bothered to care about our Father's Divine Will, anyway...

[Esaias]

Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Exo 22:21)

Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Exo 23:9)

First of all, we are forbidden to vex or oppress the stranger. Their foreign status does not entitle them to abuse.

And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 19:33-34)

The foreigner is to be treated equitably and fairly and is to be "loved" in the same way we are to love our kinsmen (see verses 17 and 18 of the same chapter).

And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 23:22)

God ordained what is basically a "welfare relief" system for not only the poor, but also for the foreigners who were in the country. The implication is that the stranger here is poor and not established in the land and a regular inhabitant with a regular job and so forth.

Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 24:22)

Foreigners are subject to the same law as the native born, namely, the law of Jehovah. They are not to be treated inequitably, they are not to be maligned or prejudiced against by law, nor are they to be favored by law. Sojourning in a godly nation means they are subject to God's laws just as much as the native citizens are. Thus, the foreigner must leave his idols behind, is subject to prosecution for blasphemy, adultery, fornication, etc, is subject to the Sabbath laws, land laws, and all the other laws. One law for everyone.

Note: this does NOT mean the foreigner is afforded ALL the exact same privileges of the native citizen. Certain things, particular of a liturgical nature, were forbidden to the foreigner:

There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing. But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat. If the priest's daughter also be married unto a stranger, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things.
(Lev 22:10-12)

And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
(Exo 12:43-49)

From this, it seems there is no such thing as being an "illegal alien" as far as God is concerned and as far as His Divine Law which all nations are expected to learn from and follow. Rather, the foreigner who comes from another country is considered a sojourner, is not to be vexed or oppressed (disciminated against), and is expected to be subject to the same laws as the rest of the people.

Now, the question concerning our current situation develops beyond the mere "law for the stranger", since we aren't dealing with "some foreigners" but literally MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of foreigners, many of whom are being brought here intentionally by powerful organizations whose intent is nefarious and dangerous to the nation. As such, our current situation is less like "strangers sojourning in the land" and more like "the nations have invaded".

However, I think if the nation actually abided by God's Law, such an invasion would simply not be happening. If the nation repents and returns to God (actually begins to obey God's Law) then I believe there would be a mass exodus of many of the foreigners (both illegal AND "legal") and the immigration issue would normalize rather quickly.

In the meantime, what is God's Law concerning invasion by foreigners?

[Esaias]

Man, this forum has really slowed down...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

From this, it seems there is no such thing as being an "illegal alien" as far as God is concerned and as far as His Divine Law which all nations are expected to learn from and follow.

Upon further study, I believe I must make a correction.

Numbers 20:14-22 KJV
And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us: [15] How our fathers went down into Egypt, and we have dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians vexed us, and our fathers: [16] And when we cried unto the Lord, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border: [17] Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink of the water of the wells: we will go by the king's high way, we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders. [18] And Edom said unto him, Thou shalt not pass by me, lest I come out against thee with the sword. [19] And the children of Israel said unto him, We will go by the high way: and if I and my cattle drink of thy water, then I will pay for it: I will only, without doing any thing else, go through on my feet. [20] And he said, Thou shalt not go through. And Edom came out against him with much people, and with a strong hand. [21] Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his border: wherefore Israel turned away from him. [22] And the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, journeyed from Kadesh, and came unto mount Hor.

Passage into (and through) a sovereign nation requires the permission of that nation. If therefore the nation refuses to allow some one or group of people entrance, that is that nation's right. Therefore, to be present illegally constitutes a trespassing subject to punishment including deportation.

Deuteronomy 2:26-31 KJV
And I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying, [27] Let me pass through thy land: I will go along by the high way, I will neither turn unto the right hand nor to the left. [28] Thou shalt sell me meat for money, that I may eat; and give me water for money, that I may drink: only I will pass through on my feet; [29] (As the children of Esau which dwell in Seir, and the Moabites which dwell in Ar, did unto me until I shall pass over Jordan into the land which the Lord our God giveth us. [30] But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. [31] And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.

Overriding a nation's refusal to allow entrance is an act of war designed for conquest. God ordered Israel to ignore Heshbon's immigration policies because Heshbon was targeted for conquest.

Kind of like this:

Deuteronomy 28:15,43-44 KJV
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: [43] The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. [44] He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

And this:

Judges 6:1-5 KJV
And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord : and the Lord delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. [2] And the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel: and because of the Midianites the children of Israel made them the dens which are in the mountains, and caves, and strong holds. [3] And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them; [4] And they encamped against them, and destroyed the increase of the earth, till thou come unto Gaza, and left no sustenance for Israel, neither sheep, nor ox, nor ass. [5] For they came up with their cattle and their tents, and they came as grasshoppers for multitude; for both they and their camels were without number: and they entered into the land to destroy it

.

[good samaritan]

In our personal lives we are to be given to hospitality. It would not be Christlike to not show any person kindness and hospitality. Although a person cannot give what they do not have. A nation operating at a deficit and continued soaring inflation, is straining the economy more allowing large numbers of refugees enter the borders. I am all for helping people, but I am not gonna take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs (so to speak).

On the flip side all things work together for the good. This maybe a way God is chastising a wicked nation.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

In our personal lives we are to be given to hospitality. It would not be Christlike to not show any person kindness and hospitality. Although a person cannot give what they do not have. A nation operating at a deficit and continued soaring inflation, is straining the economy more allowing large numbers of refugees enter the borders. I am all for helping people, but I am not gonna take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs (so to speak).

On the flip side all things work together for the good. This maybe a way God is chastising a wicked nation.

Our behavior should remain consistent in love no matter who we are dealing with...God is definitely bringing pressure to bear on this nation in many ways.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

In our personal lives we are to be given to hospitality. It would not be Christlike to not show any person kindness and hospitality.

Did Christ show the moneychangers kindness and hospitality, by your understanding and use of "kindness and hospitality" here?

Although a person cannot give what they do not have. A nation operating at a deficit and continued soaring inflation, is straining the economy more allowing large numbers of refugees enter the borders. I am all for helping people, but I am not gonna take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs (so to speak).

This is the problem with America in general, and American Christians in particular. We try to find reasons and solutions based on the world's wisdom and our own personal opinions instead of based upon God's Word. We tell people "God has the answer" and "The Bible provides the answer to mankind's problems" but we generally refuse to actually identify what God says about the problems and what God says to do about the problems, much less do we actually try to DO what God says to do about those problems. So our "God is the answer" slogans are really just empty platitudes with no real substantive meaning, and more and more people are catching on to that and just ignoring "Christians" and whatever they have to say.

We have spent generations preaching and teaching that "the old testament is not for today, not for us, not binding" and other such things to the point that we are literally as lost as two Republicans and a Democrat on a high speed train ride in Szechuan. We look for answers everywhere BUT God and His Word. "...nation operating at a deficit...soaring inflation...straining the economy..." Meanwhile the other side is all "...low birth rates not sustaining the economy...need to import more workers to keep it going...the global economy..."

This is not a conflict between two economics professors, this is a conflict between God and rebellious man. Until we turn to God as a nation and seek God's answers to our national problems we will continue to circle the drain until the final flush happens.

On the flip side all things work together for the good. This maybe a way God is chastising a wicked nation.

This is exactly what is happening:

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
(Deu 28:15)
The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
(Deu 28:43-44)

And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger. And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.
(Jdg 2:11-15)