Would you stay in a church if...

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

What if he had asked you to leave? Just wondering.

My best friend (close as a brother was told to leave because he felt that thee church in question should only have one service on Sunday as compared to two. He is now flourishing at a church in northern West Virginia.

[Abiding Now]

I love the fellowship of the people of God way to much, to not humble myself and submit my ways to the church/ministry.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

My best friend (close as a brother was told to leave because he felt that thee church in question should only have one service on Sunday as compared to two. He is now flourishing at a church in northern West Virginia.

I got that wrong with the wording: My best friend thought that there should be two services on Sunday as opposed to one. Sorry for the wording.

[Lafon]

This is in response to TPM's post, Friday, December 5, 2014 @ 9:50AM

Beloved, I don't know from which denomination you came out. Maybe I'll never know, since I was never called to be a "registered member" of one. It (the denomination) doesn't seem to be a fully Apostolic/Pentecostal church...or did not utilize scriptures to speak to you: even before two or three ministers. But...only you know.

Its rather difficult for me to follow your reasoning or "line of thought." What are you implying? Perhaps that I am not an adherent to the teachings of Oneness Apostolic Pentecostalism? FYI until the age of 48 (I'm now almost 76) I was a devout member of the Church of Christ for many years. After expending almost three years of extensive study of the Scriptures in an effort to detemine the truth concerning the phenomena of "speaking in tongues," I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost on May 3rd, 1987. I was water baptized in a UPCI church "in the name of Jesus Christ" one week later.

Following my coversion to Oneness Apostolic Pentecostalism, and realizing how I had, for such a lengthy period of time, unwittingly allowed my inherited ignorance to give unfettered liberty to Satan to deceive me, immediately I vowed that, with the ever-abiding presence and guidance of the "Spirit of Truth," from that moment forward I would never again allow the teachings of any man, regardless of the love, admiration, or respect I might hold for them, even including my own father, to become that which would form the foundation of the core principles of my belief in God and the precepts of His written Word. Isn't THIS "that" which John, writing by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, commanded a saint to do when he penned the words of I John 2:27? I certainly think so!

Accordingly, thereafter I have always sought to "prove" the words of others, even One-God Apostolic Pentecostal preachers, "testing" every "spirit (to determine) whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." As a result of that vow I have been exceedingly blessed of God; receiving many visions and dreams that convey guidance and understanding of His written Word, yea, even hearing the audible voice of my Savior as He has instructed me in the ways of righteousness. I still do!

Therefore your suggestion (or whatever), that I did not allow others to "utilize scriptures" to "speak" to me, "even before two or three ministers," is rather preposterous, indeed! I'm not boasting, but in my personal library you will find just about every book, pamplet, and other document that the UPCI Pentecostal Publishing House has ever printed. And even though I read and attempt to "glean" from them advice which is beneficial to me in my efforts to "walk" uprightly before my God, I will NEVER allow my "faith" to be placed in the "arm of the flesh" of other mortals like myself.

None, and I do mean NONE, and that includes you as well as myself, are so pious that they cannot be deceived by the subtle tactics of the enemy. I recognize my need to be diligent in seeking God's guidance in all that I do and believe, and I do so. Although I consult the writings of men, I do not rely upon them, rather my faith is in God and HIs written Word alone!

I also have an extensive library of non-Apostoic publications that I use in researching a matter, for it is my belief that one cannot effectively perform the "good fight of faith" without having some knowledge of the enemy's tactics.

Personally, I would have stayed and first asked to be taught through scriptures, and corrected even by the full ministry. I would have preferred to be brought before the whole congregation, and openly rebuked for my alleged stubbornness (I am not implying you were stubborn: I am referring to MY own stubbornness). But there you have it.

Should you take a few moments to read the title of this Thread - Would you stay in a church if you did not believe 100% of what is being taught? and my initial response - Absolutely not! And I don't, and won't, feeling NO condemnation in so doing. Paul's words of 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 "commands" me not to have company with those who do not preach and teach the SAME things which he and the other apostle's did! Aren't we to follow their steps? (see also 2 Thessalonians 3:6), you will discover that in subsequent posts I endeavored to expound upon the intimate details which led to my decision to sever my fellowship with the very same assembly in which I began my "new found faith and walk" with the Lord.

That decision was NOT an easy one for me to conclude, in fact it was extremely excuriating, and came about only after much prayer and study of the Sciptures to insure that I would not be condemned or subject my eternal destiny to be forefeited. I even continued faithful attendance there for more than five years AFTER making my disagreement known to the Pastor, during which I "paid my dues," and more. I would have been more than eager to have voiced my opinion about the matter which led to my decision to leave before the whole assembly, but came to the conclusion that was not very likely to happen for NO Pastor in the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal movement that I have ever known would even consider such a thing. Indeed, for the majority "Its my way or the highway," so I chose the "highway."

Nevertheless, a believer (in God) can remain stunted in his spiritual growth if he never hears the preaching of salvation, or believes there is salvation in any other gospel than the one defined by the Lord Jesus, and his apostles and prophets. A person can repent, and the Lord may use that individual while he's obedient to the Spirit that brought him to repentance; but that person can never achieve the full potential that the Lord has for him until he submits to the full gospel of Jesus Christ: neither can his hearers.

Your statements are offensive to me! However, I do make an allowance for that, for you do NOT truly know me! I am NOT a "believer in God"! Rather, I am more than that, being fully and irrevocably persuaded to believe that I am one of those who are "the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (I John 3:2).

If you are truly my "brother in Christ," then I ask that you begin to dialogue with me as if I am truly that, instead of using language which tends to "paint" me as if I am a reprobate, or perhaps even worse! If you want to "talk" Bible with me I would be more than happy and willing to do that, but enough of your nonsense. I have much better things I choose to do. (Again, I'm not angry or bitter, just candid!)

My warmest regards are extended to you.

PS
When do you plan to respond to my last post on "Some things just don't compute" in the General Debate & Discussion Topics section of the Debate Room? I anxious await your response.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

This is in response to TPM's post, Friday, December 5, 2014 @ 9:50AM



Its rather difficult for me to follow your reasoning or "line of thought." What are you implying? Perhaps that I am not an adherent to the teachings of Oneness Apostolic Pentecostalism? FYI until the age of 48 (I'm now almost 76) I was a devout member of the Church of Christ for many years. After expending almost three years of extensive study of the Scriptures in an effort to detemine the truth concerning the phenomena of "speaking in tongues," I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost on May 3rd, 1987. I was water baptized in a UPCI church "in the name of Jesus Christ" one week later.

Following my coversion to Oneness Apostolic Pentecostalism, and realizing how I had, for such a lengthy period of time, unwittingly allowed my inherited ignorance to give unfettered liberty to Satan to deceive me, immediately I vowed that, with the ever-abiding presence and guidance of the "Spirit of Truth," from that moment forward I would never again allow the teachings of any man, regardless of the love, admiration, or respect I might hold for them, even including my own father, to become that which would form the foundation of the core principles of my belief in God and the precepts of His written Word. Isn't THIS "that" which John, writing by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, commanded a saint to do when he penned the words of I John 2:27? I certainly think so!

Accordingly, thereafter I have always sought to "prove" the words of others, even One-God Apostolic Pentecostal preachers, "testing" every "spirit (to determine) whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." As a result of that vow I have been exceedingly blessed of God; receiving many visions and dreams that convey guidance and understanding of His written Word, yea, even hearing the audible voice of my Savior as He has instructed me in the ways of righteousness. I still do!

Therefore your suggestion (or whatever), that I did not allow others to "utilize scriptures" to "speak" to me, "even before two or three ministers," is rather preposterous, indeed! I'm not boasting, but in my personal library you will find just about every book, pamplet, and other document that the UPCI Pentecostal Publishing House has ever printed. And even though I read and attempt to "glean" from them advice which is beneficial to me in my efforts to "walk" uprightly before my God, I will NEVER allow my "faith" to be placed in the "arm of the flesh" of other mortals like myself.

None, and I do mean NONE, and that includes you as well as myself, are so pious that they cannot be deceived by the subtle tactics of the enemy. I recognize my need to be diligent in seeking God's guidance in all that I do and believe, and I do so. Although I consult the writings of men, I do not rely upon them, rather my faith is in God and HIs written Word alone!

I also have an extensive library of non-Apostoic publications that I use in researching a matter, for it is my belief that one cannot effectively perform the "good fight of faith" without having some knowledge of the enemy's tactics.



Should you take a few moments to read the title of this Thread - Would you stay in a church if you did not believe 100% of what is being taught? and my initial response - Absolutely not! And I don't, and won't, feeling NO condemnation in so doing. Paul's words of 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 "commands" me not to have company with those who do not preach and teach the SAME things which he and the other apostle's did! Aren't we to follow their steps? (see also 2 Thessalonians 3:6), you will discover that in subsequent posts I endeavored to expound upon the intimate details which led to my decision to sever my fellowship with the very same assembly in which I began my "new found faith and walk" with the Lord.

That decision was NOT an easy one for me to conclude, in fact it was extremely excuriating, and came about only after much prayer and study of the Sciptures to insure that I would not be condemned or subject my eternal destiny to be forefeited. I even continued faithful attendance there for more than five years AFTER making my disagreement known to the Pastor, during which I "paid my dues," and more. I would have been more than eager to have voiced my opinion about the matter which led to my decision to leave before the whole assembly, but came to the conclusion that was not very likely to happen for NO Pastor in the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal movement that I have ever known would even consider such a thing. Indeed, for the majority "Its my way or the highway," so I chose the "highway."



Your statements are offensive to me! However, I do make an allowance for that, for you do NOT truly know me! I am NOT a "believer in God"! Rather, I am more than that, being fully and irrevocably persuaded to believe that I am one of those who are "the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (I John 3:2).

If you are truly my "brother in Christ," then I ask that you begin to dialogue with me as if I am truly that, instead of using language which tends to "paint" me as if I am a reprobate, or perhaps even worse! If you want to "talk" Bible with me I would be more than happy and willing to do that, but enough of your nonsense. I have much better things I choose to do. (Again, I'm not angry or bitter, just candid!)

My warmest regards are extended to you.

PS
When do you plan to respond to my last post on "Some things just don't compute" in the General Debate & Discussion Topics section of the Debate Room? I anxious await your response.

I responded to your First Post on "Some Thing Do Not Compute": I thought that was sufficient. I said the following:
I read your first post on this subject, and I have gathered that you are quite correct: your "comprehension is sorely broken, or something is terribly amiss”. Yet it is due only because of a lack of instruction. Allow me to suggest the following “rules” as you study the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit is our help in searching the scriptures; __ only obedient angels can be in eternity; __ ever since iniquity was found in Lucifer, the disobedient angels cannot abide in eternity; __ in eternity, there were no laws to punish Lucifer, save the Law of Holiness; __ the Law of Sin and Death was established after the angels lost their place in eternity, so they were not subject to it; __ the spiritual and natural realms are subject to the Laws of Creation (Gen. 1:3 – 2:3); __ the Laws of Creation cannot be altered, abolished, or influenced by the Free Will; __ man was created after the Law of Sin and Death and the Law of Grace: therefore man was subject to the curse, but found redemption in grace;__the Law, under Moses, is also subject to the Laws of Creation;__Enoch, Moses, and Elias did not have to die because the ONE who created all Laws judged them worthy of life (they lived after the Law of Grace)!

Jesus did not have to die because the Law of Sin and Death had no power over him: he was sinless. Jesus gave his life to redeem man.

There is much more, but hopefully that will serve as a good basis of reflection. Man's logic has been refuted.

What I stated was refuting what you wrote in your lack of understanding. If a man is not right at the outset, he will be quite mistaken at the end. I am sorry for those under your wing: a tree that leans badly will lean along with the branches.

[Lafon]

thephnxman .....

First, I would remind and caution you that this Thread is NOT in the Debate Section of this Forum. I did NOT ask you to address the issues raised in the Debate Section, only that you GO THERE and do so. I do NOT consider that request unreasonable or inappropriate, therefore I will NOT respond to here regarding that matter. Please! For the second time I request that you go there and tender whatever remarks you might choose, and I will gladly enter into a discussion with you. I will NOT do so here, for I believe to do so would constitute complicity in your irresponsible act of "high jacking" this THREAD for your own purpose!

Secondly, seeing that I began the Thread in the Debate Section in an effort to solicit the opinions of others regarding whether it would be "righteous" for God to impose punishment upon a wicked man for his unrighteous deeds, while granting what might be rightly called a "stay," or delay of such punishment to Satan & his wicked band who were first in rebellion against God. I began that Thread on October 16th, whereas this Thread did not begin until more than two weeks later (December 2nd, in fact).

Because you had already visited the Thread that I began, and after a cursory reading of my initial posting, had formed and expressed an opinion concerning my "spirituality," which, BTW, seemed to be that I was morally corrupt and destitute of the Spirit because I wrote of things which failed to "tickle your fancy" as they stood in contradiction to your beliefs), then you came here with the mindset that whatever Lafon's response to Esaias' question might be, it would be wrong. In fact, you did not even come to this Thread to answer the question tendered by Esais, for your initial post (#43) reflects that it was for the sole purpose of attacking me because you once again recognized that my expressed beliefs were opposite to your. Why not simply confine your remarks to the issue at hand instead of mounting an assault against me because I believe differently than you?

Lighten up, my brother, and display some of the "brotherly love" that a REAL disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ has been commanded to do. "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest another: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest does the same thing" (Romans 2:1).

I must also point out the fact that you have yet to provide your response to Esaias' question, but have ONLY sought to address those of others. And THAT, my friend, is NOT what the opening post of this THREAD requested you to do! Oh yes, I know, you've told me what you would do IF you were me, but you've never answered Esaias' question and stated what you would do if it were YOU that was confronted with the situation that he described.

And so I ask you the same question, but with this one addendum, If you, after more than five years of continually striving to aid the Pastor of an assembly in which you were an active member, to recognize, and "acknowledge" that a certain element of what he was publicly proclaiming as TRUTH was, in fact, NOT in accordance with the principles et forth in the sacred Scriptures, and AFTER succeeding in that endeavor, yet witness him continuing in committing that error repeatedly afterwards; would you remain a member of that assembly when you realized that your efforts hd been for nought? In essence, that is what this THREAD is all about (I'm confident if it be otherwise Esais will correct me, and if he does, rest assured I will repent of this expressed inference).

[Lafon]

"People who live 'righteous' lives based on political correctness or legal statues can never be 'spiritual' or free. Anyone who blindly follows teachings, leadership, and authorities that are coercive, divisive, and self-serving is devoid of 'spiritual' understanding. We detest such a presence in the political arena, and it is just as distasteful in the 'faith' arena."

(A quote of Gerald Truman, Vietnam Army Medic and First Licensed Minister of the United Pentecostal Church to serve as a Military Chaplin.)

[mfblume]

Lafon, every part of this forum is free for debating. Just see how everyone writes.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Lafon, every part of this forum is free for debating. Just see how everyone writes.

How enlightening!

And here I was thinking all the while that this was the "FELLOWSHIP HALL"! You know, a part of AFF where we could engage in actual "fellowship," a place where those of the same or similar beliefs or opinions might share them between each other.

My bad, huh?

And what purpose is there for the "Debate Room"?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

How enlightening!

And here I was thinking all the while that this was the "FELLOWSHIP HALL"! You know, a part of AFF where we could engage in actual "fellowship," a place where those of the same or similar beliefs or opinions might share them between each other.

My bad, huh?

And what purpose is there for the "Debate Room"?

What's wrong with fellowshiping with debate? Is debate all about being enemies? Indeed! Very enlightening! I guess you must think me an enemy when you debate me. Gotcha!