Proof Of Soul Sleep

[Michael The Disciple]

There are two main attacks against the Apostolic teaching of the resurrection. I will deal with one of them now.

Over and over Preachers tell us the mass of scripture that teaches THE DEAD are given life at resurrection is only talking about DEAD BODIES AND NOT THE DEAD THEMSELVES.

Take 1 Cor. 15. Paul goes into great detail teaching us about when we are made alive. When we are given immortality. Its all about the GOOD NEWS. The GOSPEL and the good news are one.

Lets think on this scripture:

32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

How could Paul say this if he thought his "immortal soul" automatically went to be with Jesus at death?

Why would he say the Christian message would have no advantage if it were not for THE RESURRECTION?

But Paul! Dont we go to Heaven WHEN WE DIE? Are we not rejoicing and praising the Almighty at the throne?

Isnt the resurrection just a SECONDARY EVENT that really adds little to the great eternal life we receive at death?

Friends Paul said IF THE DEAD RISE NOT. This "rising"is THE RESURRECTION PLAINLY.

He says APART FROM THE RESURRECTION we might as well eat and drink and have fun.

Pauls HOPE was the RESURRECTION.

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

How could Paul say there is no advantage to being a Christian if the DEAD RISE NOT if indeed there are those who have been enjoying their eternal life and immortality right now in Heaven?

Why was not Pauls HOPE in the fact he would have instant Heaven and eternal life at death? It obviously was not if it was THE RESURRECTION.

Its obvious that most think THAT experience is a far greater hope than the resurrection.

See it?

There would most CERTAINLY be advantage in being a Christian if as soon as we die we have eternal life.

But here Paul seems to not even be aware of such a thing!

He is preaching to them the GOSPEL (good news) that he believed in.

The whole chapter he is telling us about the resurrection of THE DEAD not merely dead bodies.

What great thing would we be gaining if we had been alive in Heaven for 2000 years and then we gained a body? What were we doing in Heaven those 2000 years without one? And how would having one add anything to us when we are already immortal beings with eternal life?

If the DEAD RISE NOT let us go party!

In this whole chapter dedicated to telling about THE GOOD NEWS ( the gospel) there is not one word about anyone having eternal life BEFORE THE SECOND COMING WHEN THE DEAD ARE RAISED!

There is the deception.

People are preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL!

Pauls gospel is all about the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

[Michael The Disciple]

I am continuing from the previous line of thinking from my previous post.

Look at this scripture:

35: But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 1 Cor. 15:35

Lets pretend for a moment it reads like many think.

How are THE DEAD BODIES raised up and with what body do THEY COME?

See how awkward that would be? A body is not an entity in itself. It is not alive at all apart from the spirit.

Why would Paul be talking about dead bodies as if they apart from the spirit had personality? Why would he spend so much time talking about how great the resurrection will be if it merely pertains to dead bodies?

Will the spirits that supposedly are alive in Heaven spend thousands of years sitting in Heaven hoping that they will some day get a body to wear? Will they be sad because they are missing their body? Thats the way the instant Heaven doctrine comes across when it is challenged concerning the scriptures that clearly point to eternal life and immortality at the resurrection.

When he says how are THE DEAD raised up he is talking about the DEAD IN CHRIST. Not merely their dead bodies.

And when he says with what body do THEY come he is talking about the spirits of the dead who are coming alive. How will they be clothed?

The teaching of separate immortalities for the spirit and the body makes no sense to scripture.

They say the spirit is already immortal from birth. What? Where is that in scripture?

Then the body is given its immortality when Jesus comes as if that would be a big deal to people who had been in Heavenly bliss for thousands of years!

1 Cor. 15 is all about THE GOSPEL. THE GOOD NEWS.

What does Paul say in it? He never once mentions instant Heaven.

Wouldnt that be good news? But no mention.

Only pointing us to the second coming and the blast of the LAST TRUMP!

Pauls gospel as presented in 1 Cor. 15 is all about THE DEAD BEING MADE ALIVE.

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Friends come to the true gospel!

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There are two main attacks against the Apostolic teaching of the resurrection. I will deal with one of them now.

Over and over Preachers tell us the mass of scripture that teaches THE DEAD are given life at resurrection is only talking about DEAD BODIES AND NOT THE DEAD THEMSELVES.

Take 1 Cor. 15. Paul goes into great detail teaching us about when we are made alive. When we are given immortality. Its all about the GOOD NEWS. The GOSPEL and the good news are one.

Lets think on this scripture:

32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

How could Paul say this if he thought his "immortal soul" automatically went to be with Jesus at death?

Why would he say the Christian message would have no advantage if it were not for THE RESURRECTION?

But Paul! Dont we go to Heaven WHEN WE DIE? Are we not rejoicing and praising the Almighty at the throne?

Isnt the resurrection just a SECONDARY EVENT that really adds little to the great eternal life we receive at death?

Friends Paul said IF THE DEAD RISE NOT. This "rising"is THE RESURRECTION PLAINLY.

He says APART FROM THE RESURRECTION we might as well eat and drink and have fun.

Pauls HOPE was the RESURRECTION.

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

How could Paul say there is no advantage to being a Christian if the DEAD RISE NOT if indeed there are those who have been enjoying their eternal life and immortality right now in Heaven?

Why was not Pauls HOPE in the fact he would have instant Heaven and eternal life at death? It obviously was not if it was THE RESURRECTION.

Its obvious that most think THAT experience is a far greater hope than the resurrection.

See it?

There would most CERTAINLY be advantage in being a Christian if as soon as we die we have eternal life.

But here Paul seems to not even be aware of such a thing!

He is preaching to them the GOSPEL (good news) that he believed in.

The whole chapter he is telling us about the resurrection of THE DEAD not merely dead bodies.

What great thing would we be gaining if we had been alive in Heaven for 2000 years and then we gained a body? What were we doing in Heaven those 2000 years without one? And how would having one add anything to us when we are already immortal beings with eternal life?

If the DEAD RISE NOT let us go party!

In this whole chapter dedicated to telling about THE GOOD NEWS ( the gospel) there is not one word about anyone having eternal life BEFORE THE SECOND COMING WHEN THE DEAD ARE RAISED!

There is the deception.

People are preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL!

Pauls gospel is all about the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

You ask,Why would he say the Christian message would have no advantage if it were not for THE RESURRECTION?

My answer,Because the resurrection is the compleation of our salvation.

My friend the body is dead in the grave because the spirit is no longer in the body.Our spirit goes to be with God and is not sleeping or dead with the body.

James 2:26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Eccl.16:[19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.[20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.[21] Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?[

[Joelel]

It's very clear that,it can be said when we die or are killed our soul is also killed because when we die our soul is part of our body but it's also very clear our soul rests and is not dead or sleeping.It's also very clear white robes are given to us at death,not at the resurrection.It's also very clear they are crying and God speaks back to them.None of this could take place if our souls are sleeping or dead.

Rev.6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled


Also we see,When Jesus died his Spirit went and preached to the spirits of the dead.I don't think his spirit hopped from grave to grave preaching to dead spirits.If they were dead they would not hear him.

1 Peter3:[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Jesus told this story and it shows very clear our spirits and soul don't die or sleep when our bodies die and sleep.This shows us peoples body are dead but their spirit knew what was going on around them and they are in torement if they are not saved.


.Luke16:[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame


This person was in paradise with Jesus when they died and Jesus was preaching to spirits of others that were in paradise.Luke23:[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise


It's very clear spirits and souls don't sleep or are not dead.All other scripture must agree with this or can anyone tell me what scripture might be false ?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mike,

A big fat lie on your part. Unbelievable.

I do not lie, bro. I may misunderstand, but I do not lie. You claimed Paul willed that statement he made, and left it at that. What DOES THAT MEAN if it does not mean you IMPLIED Paul willed something that could never occur???

I said Paul claimed the absence from the body causes a believer to be present with the Lord. You disagreed and said that Paul WILLED that he be absent from the body and present with the Lord. That can only mean you felt it could never be the case. In other words, Paul willed something that could not occur. What else is that other than indication of Paul's fantasy? Explain to me what you meant if you did not mean Paul willed something that cannot occur.

Paul's statement refutes everything there is about soul sleep. You knew Paul made that statement, but responded saying HE WILLED that to be so. And then you left it at that. If you did not mean Paul willed something that could never occur, then what did you mean, and why did you say nothing more?

Since Paul made that valid statement, then everything you say about the dead being raised is referring ONLY TO THE BODY, since the spirit and soul are not sleeping before the resurrection, but with the Lord.

Anyway, believe what ye will.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

We may believe what we chose I suppose. My Bible says only Jesus has immortality.

... speaking of the BODY, due to Paul's statement in 2 Cor 5. Brother, you consistently miss the context is speaking of BODY.

Notice the tend of your points, MTD. You are not finding one plain statement that says "SOULS" SLEEP until resurrection. All you are providing are statements that say THE DEAD are raised up, without any clarification as to whether that means the entire soul and spirit and body or just the body. YOU say it means the entire person. And then you go to all sorts of other references that do not distinguish soul as well, and you claim it does. But none of these instances say it in plain terms. Meanwhile, I show you Paul's statement, that is plain, that absence from the body provides presence with the Lord, and you blow it off as if Paul merely WILLED that to occur but it doesn't really occur.

This reminds me of other doctrines that cannot be solidly proved with explicit statements. Folks who feel there is no end to satan and that the resurrection does not include physical bodies do the same thing. Nothing they say is plainly stated anywhere in the Bible. This is a common denominator with error, I believe.

That is a far cry from instances where culture throws a roadblock in the way by using idioms and metaphors our culture does not use. Soul sleep is an issue of simply not being stated anywhere in scripture in plain terms. There is no idiom issue or metaphor and cultural issue in soul sleep.

So, all your alleged proofs are not proofs at all, but passages that could go either way and indeed IMPLY soul sleep or NOT IMPLY it. But the statement I found from 2 Cor 5 about presence with the Lord shuts the case. And all you can say about that is Paul only WILLED that experience. Okaaaay.

[ApostolicTexas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

How about this:

2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2-3

Jesus said before we will be with him where he is he will have to come again and receive us to himself. I take this to mean at his second coming.

Instant Heaven doctrine says as soon as you die you are with him where he is.

Who should we believe?

John 14 Jesus was speaking to HIS DISCIPLES!..not to you or me..He fulfilled what He told them at Pentecost!..He came back! He kept His Word! people still cannot believe it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by ApostolicTexas

John 14 Jesus was speaking to HIS DISCIPLES!..not to you or me..He fulfilled what He told them at Pentecost!..He came back! He kept His Word! people still cannot believe it.

Amen. Jesus actually SAID what the Father's house was. HIMSELF! Two seconds after speaking about IN MY FATHER'S HOUSE, Jesus said THE FATHER DWELLETH IN ME.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by joelel

it's also very clear white robes are given to us at death,not at the resurrection.it's also very clear they are crying and god speaks back to them.none of this could take place if our souls are sleeping or dead.

Rev.6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, i saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of god, and for the testimony which they held:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, o lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled

...

Jesus told this story and it shows very clear our spirits and soul don't die or sleep when our bodies die and sleep.This shows us peoples body are dead but their spirit knew what was going on around them and they are in torement if they are not saved.


.Luke16:[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame


This person was in paradise with Jesus when they died and Jesus was preaching to spirits of others that were in paradise.Luke23:[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

very good!

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi Joel and Mike,

Could you explain where peoples souls went before Abraham died and went to take residence in his Bosom?

Why did the rich man pray to Abraham and not to God?

Where can we find Abrahams Bosom in the Old Testament?

Do you believe that the many thousands of souls who die every die and are in Hades burning hold conversations with Abraham?

Mike Blume is on record teaching that the spirit and soul go to Heaven at death but have no body until the resurrection. If this doctrine is true why did they both have body parts? The rich man wanted Lazarus to dip his FINGER IN WATER and then touch HIS TONGUE. The rich man had EYES which he lifted up. Apparently they were able to see Abraham so he had a body also!

Does this not negate the "disembodied soul" doctrine?

Last of all guys where does this story state that these two mens SOULS went anywhere?

I have been constantly told by instant Heaven believers that all the places that talk about the state of the dead always is talking about dead bodies only. They want the burden of proof to be on me to prove that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 in particular to prove the soul and not just the body sleeps.

But now here in the story of Lazarus and the rich man which they take as Yeshua's literal teaching of the afterlife the word SOULS does not appear.

So Mike how can you say their souls went anywhere at their death?