The Source of Most Church Problems

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Adam was punished for his own sin not for passing the blame on his wife.

You are correct, theologically. However, the man will still inevitably pass the blame. That's the way we are. There's a "reason" for everything that goes wrong; and it's usually the "other guy." Unless that "other guy" looks like his ears are pricked up- then we blame the ladies. That soothes things over between us guys everytime.

1st Guy: "Yup, had a bit of trouble."
2nd Guy: "What'd you do wrong?"
1st Guy: "Nothing! It was the women, they..."
2nd Guy: "Say no more, brother. Same thing happened to me."

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Friend, which generalities did I offer? I only ask so that I may address the issues in a more specific manner. I often condense posts because I am told AFF posters will not stay tuned for more than a few paragraphs.:sshhh

:sshhh Some of the fare on the Disney channel is actually quite good. They don't seem to be force feeding the politically correct agenda so much. Billy Ray Cyrus and his daughter have a show that actually seems to be crafted at promoting the more traditional view of fatherhood. It's of course secular or worldly in the theme (girl is secretly a pop-star) but they consistently promote the father's role.

Your points about the roles is well made though, despite my teasing with mizpeh. We need to have "safe" places in our relationships. Life is about exploration and the unknown- but you've got to have a harbor where you can heal and do some repairs after the inevitable storms. A good family where everybody knows where everything is kept is such a harbor.

And I hear you about condensing. I'm probably the worst offender!

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by Ferd

PP, I totaly agree with you.

on another note, I was talking to my mom the other day about church trouble and you know what she said?

"every case of church trouble Ive ever seen, there was a woman or money involved"

Her words not mine.

I've had more up close and personal experience with church trouble than I really care to remember but nonetheless I do remember...

I remember my first pastor having affairs with women and teenage girls in the church and running off with church money.

When ultimately questioned by the church board, the husbands of the women involved and other church members, he simply resigned the church and went to another city to start another church under the UPCI Home Missions umbrella.

I remember this same pastor refusing to "submit" to district leadership after being reported and caught. When the district leadership continued to question his dealings in the previous city he finally turned in his card and went "independent".

For awhile he did better. But then the same stuff started happening again. He finally resigned this church and left the state.

Ultimately his wife left him and his kids went wild, hated the church and blamed God for it all.

In his wake, in two cities, he left behind over 20 destroyed families, several teenage girls who lives had been destroyed, church members who either backslid or left for other churches - some of which went to the local Assembly of God where they told all the horrid stories, and a bad reputation that my current church is still trying to live down to this very day...and all this junk happened in the LATE 70's!

And if thats not enough...

My SECOND pastor, lacking money problems, had plenty of "women" problems. He was a bit smarter though. He used out of town prostitutes instead of church girls and women.

He resigned my church and after evangelizing for awhile eventually returned to WI to start a Home Missions work in another city.

Cutting some of the horrid details short, he ultimately refused to "submit" to district leadership, turned in his card and went "independent".

He led the church down the "charismatic road" and many people left.

He ultimately found another woman on the internet, left his wife and kids and ran off on a Harley.

In his wake, he left behind alot of confused backslidden people, a wife and two kids who no longer attend church, his son, having felt a call to preach, became bitter against God and remains so to this day.

So...to sum things up...I agree. MONEY and WOMEN do cause alot of church problems. However...

It all falls back on LEADERSHIP. Responsibility rides on LEADERSHIP.

In the family, MEN are the leaders. As the family goes, so the church goes.

You can play the same "blame game" that Adam played if you want to but when push comes to shove, God isn't going to play your game. He doesn't play this game with men or women.

Pastor Poster - I understand you were not blaming any one gender. But others here clearly are. Including this lady preacher. I believe that MEN are the source of the majority of church problems while often pointing their fingers at the women.

BOOM - The bulldog has barked. Are you happy now?

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

I've had more up close and personal experience with church trouble than I really care to remember but nonetheless I do remember...

I remember my first pastor having affairs with women and teenage girls in the church and running off with church money.

When ultimately questioned by the church board, the husbands of the women involved and other church members, he simply resigned the church and went to another city to start another church under the UPCI Home Missions umbrella.

I remember this same pastor refusing to "submit" to district leadership after being reported and caught. When the district leadership continued to question his dealings in the previous city he finally turned in his card and went "independent".

For awhile he did better. But then the same stuff started happening again. He finally resigned this church and left the state.

Ultimately his wife left him and his kids went wild, hated the church and blamed God for it all.

In his wake, in two cities, he left behind over 20 destroyed families, several teenage girls who lives had been destroyed, church members who either backslid or left for other churches - some of which went to the local Assembly of God where they told all the horrid stories, and a bad reputation that my current church is still trying to live down to this very day...and all this junk happened in the LATE 70's!

And if thats not enough...

My SECOND pastor, lacking money problems, had plenty of "women" problems. He was a bit smarter though. He used out of town prostitutes instead of church girls and women.

He resigned my church and after evangelizing for awhile eventually returned to WI to start a Home Missions work in another city.

Cutting some of the horrid details short, he ultimately refused to "submit" to district leadership, turned in his card and went "independent".

He led the church down the "charismatic road" and many people left.

He ultimately found another woman on the internet, left his wife and kids and ran off on a Harley.

In his wake, he left behind alot of confused backslidden people, a wife and two kids who no longer attend church, his son, having felt a call to preach, became bitter against God and remains so to this day.

So...to sum things up...I agree. MONEY and WOMEN do cause alot of church problems. However...

It all falls back on LEADERSHIP. Responsibility rides on LEADERSHIP.

In the family, MEN are the leaders. As the family goes, so the church goes.

You can play the same "blame game" that Adam played if you want to but when push comes to shove, God isn't going to play your game. He doesn't play this game with men or women.

Pastor Poster - I understand you were not blaming any one gender. But others here clearly are. Including this lady preacher. I believe that MEN are the source of the majority of church problems while often pointing their fingers at the women.

BOOM - The bulldog has barked. Are you happy now?

all that Lady rev, said is true, i know, and she is right, no matter who you are if you argue with her about this, you are losing, i can verify every detail and more, god bless you lady rev for not letting those weak pitiful men destroy you, you are blessed my friend, dt

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

I've had more up close and personal experience with church trouble than I really care to remember but nonetheless I do remember...

I remember my first pastor having affairs with women and teenage girls in the church and running off with church money.

When ultimately questioned by the church board, the husbands of the women involved and other church members, he simply resigned the church and went to another city to start another church under the UPCI Home Missions umbrella.

I remember this same pastor refusing to "submit" to district leadership after being reported and caught. When the district leadership continued to question his dealings in the previous city he finally turned in his card and went "independent".

For awhile he did better. But then the same stuff started happening again. He finally resigned this church and left the state.

Ultimately his wife left him and his kids went wild, hated the church and blamed God for it all.

In his wake, in two cities, he left behind over 20 destroyed families, several teenage girls who lives had been destroyed, church members who either backslid or left for other churches - some of which went to the local Assembly of God where they told all the horrid stories, and a bad reputation that my current church is still trying to live down to this very day...and all this junk happened in the LATE 70's!

And if thats not enough...

My SECOND pastor, lacking money problems, had plenty of "women" problems. He was a bit smarter though. He used out of town prostitutes instead of church girls and women.

He resigned my church and after evangelizing for awhile eventually returned to WI to start a Home Missions work in another city.

Cutting some of the horrid details short, he ultimately refused to "submit" to district leadership, turned in his card and went "independent".

He led the church down the "charismatic road" and many people left.

He ultimately found another woman on the internet, left his wife and kids and ran off on a Harley.

In his wake, he left behind alot of confused backslidden people, a wife and two kids who no longer attend church, his son, having felt a call to preach, became bitter against God and remains so to this day.

So...to sum things up...I agree. MONEY and WOMEN do cause alot of church problems. However...

It all falls back on LEADERSHIP. Responsibility rides on LEADERSHIP.

In the family, MEN are the leaders. As the family goes, so the church goes.

You can play the same "blame game" that Adam played if you want to but when push comes to shove, God isn't going to play your game. He doesn't play this game with men or women.

Pastor Poster - I understand you were not blaming any one gender. But others here clearly are. Including this lady preacher. I believe that MEN are the source of the majority of church problems while often pointing their fingers at the women.

BOOM - The bulldog has barked. Are you happy now?

Women and money DID NOT cause the church problems you described LR.

An immoral covetuoes man caused those problems.

The devil did'nt make him do it either..so don't try to blame him either.

The blame falls squareley on the man and in this case the pastor.

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Women and money DID NOT cause the church problems you described LR.

An immoral covetuoes man caused those problems.

The devil did'nt make him do it either..so don't try to blame him either.

The blame falls squareley on the man and in this case the pastor.

all true, dt

[revrandy]

I have heard it said too few times...

Two issues the church refuses to deal with or teach correctly...

Money & Sex...

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by DividedThigh

all that Lady rev, said is true, i know, and she is right, no matter who you are if you argue with her about this, you are losing, i can verify every detail and more, god bless you lady rev for not letting those weak pitiful men destroy you, you are blessed my friend, dt

DT, I loved those men and their families. I was just a "babe in Christ" and I trusted these men. I babysat those preachers kids. I still have contact with some of the kids and the wife of the second pastor. It breaks my heart to see them as they are now. And I'm not talking about outward appearance...I'm talking about the obvious bitterness, the hatred of God and the church, the messed up lives, and the children they are passing this on to.

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by revrandy

I have heard it said too few times...

Two issues the church refuses to deal with or teach correctly...

Money & Sex...

my grandpa used to tell me when i was younger, son there are two things that destroy preachers, women and money, not necesarrily in that order, lol, no kidding, he was right on, dt

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Women and money DID NOT cause the church problems you described LR.

An immoral covetuoes man caused those problems.

The devil did'nt make him do it either..so don't try to blame him either.

The blame falls squareley on the man and in this case the pastor.

Ummm, actually, that is what I said.

I did place the blame on the man. Secondary blame on the "love of" money and on the women/girls for giving in to and often NOT reporting the man. All of the above caused church problems with the source being a man.