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| Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other. |
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07-14-2007, 12:00 AM
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His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
How many apostles or pastors during the 1st centrury were employed in the temple? None of course ... How many received food from the temple or presided over animal sacrifices ... none of course ...
We know that Jewish priests still operated as priests until 70 A.D., when the temple was destroyed ... and although the Jewish Christians still attended synagogue they did not officiate in the temple ...
Most importantly, none of the epistles take the time to teach Gentile babes in the Lord what is tithing or why they should ... it seems counterintuitive that not one epistle addresses it if ... one of the 8 laws of tithing still applied.
Paul is simply stating the obvious that the worker ... no matter who he is is ... is worthy of his salary.
It's a giant leap to make the assumption that this is an instruction ... when it is obviously an observation.
Furthermore ... Peter tells us we are all royal priests ... if we are going to use the priestly argument then we all are entitled to the tithe.
It is clear that Paul is making a parallel here to highlight the importance of the man of God being compensated.
Nothing more, nothing less.
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Stop blasting me with the truth, Daniel....I dont know if I can take it any longer.  
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07-14-2007, 12:15 AM
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His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity
Again J-Roc.......
I think it would be up to Daddy Warbucks what he wants to do with his money and his tithe. In the hypothetical case you mention if he does what is normally done by most of the evangelical christian world, he would pay 10% and the church and the pastor would be the lucky participant as long as Daddy stayed there.
Really .... what and who determines who is or isn't worth whatever amount of $$$. It's not whether the pastor is worth it or worthy of it. It boils down to the fact that Daddy W needs to tithe. Someone(s) will be the fortunate recipient of that.
And again .... who REALLY is 'worth' or worthy of that amount of money? If I was the pastor I'd feel unworthy but very very blessed!  |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity
Hey! You never commented on post 424. Is it redundant? Or just dumb? Agree? Disagree?
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Sorry for the delay, Mother Shepherd.
I don't agree that there is a set percentage determined in our giving...and it is not that Daddi Warbux needs to "tithe" but rather he should be led by the Spirit to give. And Ministers are worthy of their pay, but not 10% of all the monies that come in so that if 2.5 million came in the church offerings, that it belongs to him.
I quote someone that replied on this subject elsewhere:
Quote:
Even if one were to construe the tithe as being exacted on wages then one would also understand that only 10% of the tithe went to the priests... another 10% of the tithe went to pay the Levites, porters, musicians etc... then the other 80% was to go to feed the poor, widows, orphans, strangers etc.
Imagine if $6.4 million per year went to take care of actual people instead of building huge edifices and build personal kingdoms.
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07-14-2007, 12:41 AM
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His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,853
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Just to follow up, Felicity....if that were the case, that a Pastor gets all the offerings, the structure we are seeing is nothing more than a Multi-Level Marketing set up where a Pastor recruits converts and the pyramid is clearly seen by all the different legs he creates....and for that, as I've mentioned, we have Amway Corporation (Quixtar)....
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07-14-2007, 12:56 AM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Roc
Just to follow up, Felicity....if that were the case, that a Pastor gets all the offerings, the structure we are seeing is nothing more than a Multi-Level Marketing set up where a Pastor recruits converts and the pyramid is clearly seen by all the different legs he creates....and for that, as I've mentioned, we have Amway Corporation (Quixtar)....
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Actually in an MLM everyone gets paid, but the higher you are the more you get paid, not just the guy at the top of the pyramid (BTW an MLM is NOT a pyramid scheme)
Isn't that the same thing in many corporations too?
Also, so what if that's just like an MLM? Does that prove it's wrong? No.
However I don't think it should all go to the pastor once a church can support more. As it is most large churches don't give all of it to the Pastor
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-14-2007, 01:03 AM
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His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Actually in an MLM everyone gets paid, but the higher you are the more you get paid, not just the guy at the top of the pyramid (BTW an MLM is NOT a pyramid scheme)
Isn't that the same thing in many corporations too?
Also, so what if that's just like an MLM? Does that prove it's wrong? No.
However I don't think it should all go to the pastor once a church can support more. As it is most large churches don't give all of it to the Pastor
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Prax, looks like you've been to one too many Amway meetings, what are you a ruby diamond... 
Corporations have salaries and salary caps...
God did not create the church for men to peddle the gospel...
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07-14-2007, 01:05 AM
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Guest
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Roc
Prax, looks like you've been to one too many Amway meetings, what are you a ruby diamond...
Corporations have salaries and salary caps...
God did not create the church for men to peddle the gospel... |
J ... stop w/ the asinine [to use a Praxiom] ... ad hominem attacks.
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07-14-2007, 01:06 AM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
How many apostles or pastors during the 1st century were employed in the temple? None of course ... How many received food from the temple or presided over animal sacrifices ... none of course ...
We know that Jewish priests still operated as priests until 70 A.D., when the temple was destroyed ... and although the Jewish Christians still attended synagogue they did not officiate in the temple ...
Most importantly, none of the epistles take the time to teach Gentile babes in the Lord what is tithing or why they should ... it seems counterintuitive that not one epistle addresses it if ... one of the 8 laws of tithing still applied.
Paul is simply stating the obvious that the worker ... no matter who he is ... is worthy of his salary.
It's a giant leap to make the assumption that this is an instruction ... when it is obviously an observation.
Furthermore ... Peter tells us we are all royal priests ... if we are going to use the priestly argument then we all are entitled to the tithe.
It is clear that Paul is making a parallel here to highlight the importance of the man of God being compensated.
Nothing more, nothing less.
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Paul is not talking about any worker. He is talking about those that labor in the gospel.
Nobody is using the "priestly argument"
1Co 9:14 In the same way the Lord commanded those who proclaim the gospel to receive their living by the gospel.
How is this done?
You say this is not instruction but observation....yet Paul says "The Lord commanded".
Those who labor in the gospel are to be taken care of....IF that is the command, that they live off the gospel, then it seems only right by way of charity that we take care of them too, just as we are to take care of the poor and widows and children etc etc.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-14-2007, 01:08 AM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Roc
Prax, looks like you've been to one too many Amway meetings, what are you a ruby diamond...
Corporations have salaries and salary caps...
God did not create the church for men to peddle the gospel... |
I never said God created the church for men to peddle the gospel nor did I suggest the pastors salary should be unlimited.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-14-2007, 01:09 AM
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Guest
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Paul is not talking about any worker. He is talking about those that labor in the gospel.
Nobody is using the "priestly argument"
1Co 9:14 In the same way the Lord commanded those who proclaim the gospel to receive their living by the gospel.
How is this done?
You say this is not instruction but observation....yet Paul says "The Lord commanded".
Those who labor in the gospel are to be taken care of....IF that is the command, that they live off the gospel, then it seems only right by way of charity that we take care of them too, just as we are to take care of the poor and widows and children etc etc.
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Is it me or we're agreeing that the man of God should be taken care of???? .... yet there is no way this verse can be used to justify the SELECTIVE tithing doctrine
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07-14-2007, 01:09 AM
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His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Those who labor in the gospel are to be taken care of....IF that is the command, that they live off the gospel, then it seems only right by way of charity that we take care of them too, just as we are to take care of the poor and widows and children etc etc.
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And who is saying that they should not receive compensation?
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