It's applies to a lot of teachings, does't it? The New Testament gives many answers to the question of how to be saved. Better obey them all! Start with selling all you have and give it to the poor. Oh, that was a one-time thing, just for that one guy? How can you be so sure? Maybe it doesn't apply to everyone, just to some. Maybe you! And even if it's just a principle for us to learn, as I've been told, that this fellow was so attached to his wealth, that Jesus zeroed in on that one thing. What one thing do you have that you're very attached to? Money? House? Kids? Don't take chances!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I agree...no absolutes...this is the way we dealt with our children as they were growing up....we presented them with the principle of "say no to drugs"...but when they started cooking meth in their bedroom we simply told them how we felt about it but there was no way that we were going to stunt their personal growth by actually laying down rules.....we just felt that they had to figure it all out for themselves....not to mention they might resent our rules and become bitter.
The rehab, ER, Bails bondsman bills have piled up...not to mention the dental bills (meth eats the teeth away)...and the contractors bill when the lab blew......but we are secure in the knowledge that our children were able to make their own choices and we did not actually lay down any rules...they are not in bondage!!!!..(well..actually I guess jail might be considered bondage...sorta...)
deadeye, I understand that pastors and elders need to look out for the sheep and sometimes place boundaries that are meant to be protective.
Two things wrong with your post, though:
1. The pastor-saint relationship is not analogous to the parent-child relationship, and
2. Many rules are put into place that have nothing to do with protecting saints from sin, and everything to do with helping the pastor fit into a select group of his peers. That motivation is disingenuous and harmful.
We're not talking about rules like: "You're not allowed to have a meth lab in your bedroom or you'll be kicked out of the house." We're talking about rules like, "You're not allowed to ever lay your t-shirt on the end of the bed, or we'll kick you out of the house." Rules are made regarding things that are NOT actually injurious to the saint, and those rules are all placed on the same level of importance with issues of morality, which is ludicrous.
That would be like telling your child that they are going to be in just as much danger from eating a bag of M&M's in their room as they are to cook meth. In many Apostolic churches, you are put into the backslider category just as quickly for wearing
skirt with a split as you are for lying or stealing. There's something VERY wrong with that picture.
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
deadeye, I understand that pastors and elders need to look out for the sheep and sometimes place boundaries that are meant to be protective.
Two things wrong with your post, though:
1. The pastor-saint relationship is not analogous to the parent-child relationship, and
2. Many rules are put into place that have nothing to do with protecting saints from sin, and everything to do with helping the pastor fit into a select group of his peers. That motivation is disingenuous and harmful.
We're not talking about rules like: "You're not allowed to have a meth lab in your bedroom or you'll be kicked out of the house." We're talking about rules like, "You're not allowed to ever lay your t-shirt on the end of the bed, or we'll kick you out of the house." Rules are made regarding things that are NOT actually injurious to the saint, and those rules are all placed on the same level of importance with issues of morality, which is ludicrous.
That would be like telling your child that they are going to be in just as much danger from eating a bag of M&M's in their room as they are to cook meth. In many Apostolic churches, you are put into the backslider category just as quickly for wearing
skirt with a split as you are for lying or stealing. There's something VERY wrong with that picture.
I don't disagree with most of this....in fact it has been a pet peeve of mine too..Pastors who make arbitrary rules without any basis for them.
But they aren't based on principles. You mention M&M's...it would seem silly to make a rule for a kid not to eat them...but what if he has Juvenile Diabetes?....is it so silly then. The duty of the Pastor (watchman) is to warn of things that can harm...and sometimes lay down rules that will deter folks from getting into trouble.
But I agree rules for the sake of rules are simply legalism.
But we sometimes criticize a pastor for a rule he may have set without knowing the context of that rule.
As Elder Terry said (I believe it was him)..."don't remove a fence until you know why it was put there."
I agree...no absolutes...this is the way we dealt with our children as they were growing up....we presented them with the principle of "say no to drugs"...but when they started cooking meth in their bedroom we simply told them how we felt about it but there was no way that we were going to stunt their personal growth by actually laying down rules.....we just felt that they had to figure it all out for themselves....not to mention they might resent our rules and become bitter.
The rehab, ER, Bails bondsman bills have piled up...not to mention the dental bills (meth eats the teeth away)...and the contractors bill when the lab blew......but we are secure in the knowledge that our children were able to make their own choices and we did not actually lay down any rules...they are not in bondage!!!!..(well..actually I guess jail might be considered bondage...sorta...)
Does ANYone on this forum see the absolute asinine idiocy mentality of the "no absolutes" crowd!!!!...(sidenote...admin I am not calling any names here ..just shooting at a mentality)
Pastor does not equal parent. Your analogy just doesn't relate at all. A child certainly needs rules, but as Loren Yadon used to tell us, "People of faith don't need a rule book."
A 35 year old man doesn't need a 25 year old pastor telling him what he should or shouldn't do all the time. This attitude that pastors have authority over peoples's lives is a bit over the top to me.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
I agree...no absolutes...this is the way we dealt with our children as they were growing up....we presented them with the principle of "say no to drugs"...but when they started cooking meth in their bedroom we simply told them how we felt about it but there was no way that we were going to stunt their personal growth by actually laying down rules.....we just felt that they had to figure it all out for themselves....not to mention they might resent our rules and become bitter.
The rehab, ER, Bails bondsman bills have piled up...not to mention the dental bills (meth eats the teeth away)...and the contractors bill when the lab blew......but we are secure in the knowledge that our children were able to make their own choices and we did not actually lay down any rules...they are not in bondage!!!!..(well..actually I guess jail might be considered bondage...sorta...)
Does ANYone on this forum see the absolute asinine idiocy mentality of the "no absolutes" crowd!!!!...(sidenote...admin I am not calling any names here ..just shooting at a mentality)
By the way...I was using a little sarcasm there....my 2 daughters are great kids...love God ...filled with the Holy Ghost...and absolutely exhausted after a week of senior camp...
My oldest told me on the phone a few minutes ago that she cant wait to get home to her bed and mama's cooking.
All your side seems to have is EXTREME examples and fear tactics!
What parents bring a child into the world and just leave them to their own devices with no instruction or guidance? Certainly not good ones! I sure didn't advocate an "anything goes" mentality, and I don't know anyone who does. The point I made, and continue to make, is that I raised my son from an infant with instruction by my example as well as outright encouragement to do the right thing. When he erred, there was correction. As he got older, I was able to back off little by little and watch as he made the right decisions for himself because that's what he was trained to do. I'm not micromanaging every aspect of his life, neither will I force him to follow my rules into adulthood.
But that's what we do in the church, right? People who are born brand new as babies into the church are subject to the same rules as those who have been in Christ for decades - because ONE SIZE FITS ALL. And it's usually very capriciously based on the local pastor's pet doctrine or conviction. So Joe may not be allowed to do something that Jerry can because Jerry's pastor has a completely different view. Nothing standard about standards here!
If the leadership/ministry did the job they are supposed to do - perfecting the saints - instead of establishing arbitrary boundaries and encumbering the saints with unnecessary yokes - the saints would be more mature and be equipped to make decisions based on the leading of the Spirit rather than the edict of the "man of God."
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Instead of studying to make sure what we believe is supported by Scripture, we MUST study the Scripture to see what IT TEACHES... then BELIEVE THAT!
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2.15 KJV
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is by faith only PERIOD.
Abraham was righteous because he believed.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
James is basically saying “You say you have Faith?, then prove it” There should be love manifested from your life as God is love, and if you are in Christ… you should also be LOVE in word and action. Fruit should be displayed in your life.
Has absolutely nothing to do with clothes and hair and jumping through hoops for men.
If someone is worried about whether they are making it or not, trying to earn their way by behavior...they just do not have a clear understanding of who they are in Christ.
So if no fruit or proof then no faith and lost?
Anyhow james cleary said "Was not Abraham our father justified by works"
" Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
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Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
heaven by works? Only if your source is works is this true. The source of salvation is Christ and his mercy toward us by dying for us and bringing us into new covenant and life. The power of the blood of the covenant is seen in walking as he walked by his power.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
are we free in regards to righteousness now as covenant people? Actually lawlessness is what brings condemnation of the law not works otherwise you mock His Word. Again you confuse the point of Paul and works and are totally ignoring James.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. KJV
Not the same thing.
Obedience to the commandments of Christ is not the same as "works" that people perform to earn their salvation or "stay saved."
I'm not a Calvinist, and I don't believe the OSAS heresy. But our works need to be a result of our faith in response to grace, not contrary to it. That's was why I used the "rather make heaven by a mile than miss it by an inch" statement. It smacks of "doing so I can earn", instead of what Digging4Truth was alluding to - I do this because I love Jesus and believe it would be pleasing to him.
A true Christian will always have good works. But their good works do not earn their reward.
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Instead of studying to make sure what we believe is supported by Scripture, we MUST study the Scripture to see what IT TEACHES... then BELIEVE THAT!
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2.15 KJV
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