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  #431  
Old 05-04-2008, 12:02 PM
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dizzyde dizzyde is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

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Originally Posted by SavedLou View Post
the more years i spend in the UPC the more inconsistencies i see as far as some standards. we will use one verse and leave the other. examples: with the hair issue, we will take this at face value "it's a shame for a woman to be shorn" and then try to explain this one away "it's a shame for a woman to speak in church". we say one is a "cultural" issue. inconsistent. with jewelry, we will take the "women adorn yourselves with modesty...not with gold, pearls" and leave this off "...AND costly array". so we have nice holy women with no makeup or jewelry but wearing very expensive suits. inconsistent. we pick and choose. there are actually tons of scriptures where jewelry is spoken of positively but we ignore those verses. just food for thought.


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  #432  
Old 05-04-2008, 12:04 PM
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

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Originally Posted by chosenbyone View Post
Thanks for sharing this morning. lol...

Really, many here know exactly where you were coming from in this post. My opinion, modesty is mandated by the Lord and he will convict you if you cross the line. Standards should be personal between you and the Lord and not Sister Sally on the fourth pew on the right.

Unfortunately, after witnessing so many folks who became disillusioned with the mandated standards which caused them to leave the UPC, I saw many let go of one thing after another until they let go of God. That truly scared me, because many of these folks were ones that really walked with God. What they thought was new found liberty became their stubbing block. After years of conditioning to dress and behave a certain way, many of them never learned the meaning of "moderation".

OK....I don't know who put all these soap boxes in my office. I keep on stepping on them.
That's OK, I may have forgot to put one back in the right place when I last borrowed it, you probably tripped over it!!
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  #433  
Old 05-04-2008, 12:23 PM
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SavedLou SavedLou is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

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Originally Posted by chosenbyone View Post
Thanks for sharing this morning. lol...

Really, many here know exactly where you were coming from in this post. My opinion, modesty is mandated by the Lord and he will convict you if you cross the line. Standards should be personal between you and the Lord and not Sister Sally on the fourth pew on the right.

Unfortunately, after witnessing so many folks who became disillusioned with the mandated standards which caused them to leave the UPC, I saw many let go of one thing after another until they let go of God. That truly scared me, because many of these folks were ones that really walked with God. What they thought was new found liberty became their stubbing block. After years of conditioning to dress and behave a certain way, many of them never learned the meaning of "moderation".
OK....I don't know who put all these soap boxes in my office. I keep on stepping on them.

moderation is the key! p.s. what's a stubbing block?
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  #434  
Old 05-04-2008, 02:13 PM
LaGirl LaGirl is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

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Originally Posted by SavedLou View Post
moderation is the key! p.s. what's a stubbing block?

LOU......dont you have something to add on the romper thread????
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  #435  
Old 05-04-2008, 02:15 PM
LaGirl LaGirl is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

never mind.....just saw it.....lol
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  #436  
Old 05-04-2008, 02:49 PM
CAD/JPY CAD/JPY is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

<reply to old paths posts>

Good stuff. For the record, I have no problem with pastoral authority in a church. My father has been a pastor for most of my life. He has done a fine job.

Where my concern lies is with reaching the lost. I truly feel that we are not living the example of Paul that you mentioned, and referred to scriptures that more or less say, "I become all things to all men". I loved your comment "
One could take the above and say that if anything could offend anyone and could possibly keep them from receiving an invitation to come and hear truth and getting saved, it should be avoided."

Wow! Think about that for a moment. We are talking about designing our churches to reflect the minimal amount of barriers for someone to come and be saved. Your post is suggesting that we avoid things that could offend someone from not hearing the truth.

Now the barriers:
1) You bring up hair in I Cor. 11. The principle throughout that scripture is referring to authority and submission before God. We have taken one word, "shorn" and used it to teach that a women's hair can never be cut. That to be long is to be uncut. We disregard other scriptures that specifically refer to shorn as being short, even Acts 18:18 where Paul's head was shorn because he had a vow before God. If God wanted it to be uncut, why didn't he just have Paul use the Greek word for uncut? For me, I have a problem with our classic intepretation.... I am sure we are creating a barrier that stops visitors from even considering coming to our church. IF someone wants to hold this as a personal conviction, well that is their choice... but please don't extend that to the congregation and put a stumbling block before the lost. I see a sinner lady with long hair, and I know it is long... even if it is cut. I notice the long hair, and my first thought is she is a woman. To ask ladies to have uncut hair is a major challenge to most newly converted saints.... and to sinners who are aware of this! My wife wasn't raised in Pentecost, is extremely intelligent, well educated, and saved. Now I am to ask her to abide by a teaching that can't be supported in scripture?

2) No beards on men! Ok, the 70's are over with. Why do we still need to try and hold this as a holiness standard? Why are books written in an effort to try and support the "no beard" standard? We want separation of the sexes and doesn't a man wearing a beard certainly have immediate distinction from a woman! I doubt the "no beard" standard stops many people from visiting a church, but why have it in place if it isn't scriptural?

3) Holiness tends to get thought of as a dress and acceptable look on a woman. We have accomplished "Separation". So as a man, how does my dress separate me from the world? The majority of our pentecostal men look no different from their conservative counterparts. We need to teach holiness as a lifestyle that is pleasing to God. We need a healthy fear of our actions before a holy God. We need to continually demonstrate a LOVE of GOD and PEOPLE. When was the last time I visited the sick, the widows.. or feed the hungry... or supported the orphans? Is this not holiness... loving like Jesus did?

Yes, I agree with the poster... if leadership mandates a requirement then it is bound in heaven for that church. If leadership looses something, then it is loosed in heaven. "All authority" was given....

So to everyone reading this. To pastors who might read this.
Please consider that what we hold as traditions and call "old paths" and "landmarks" may just simply be a conservative choice done in the 1940's to align with the last few decades of culture. Don't twist the scriptures and attempt to force them to support your personal conviction! Ask yourself, why do you really call this a conviction? Will it help or hinder people getting saved? I'm looking for the real old paths, the ones the apostles and disciples trod... and if a mistake has been made, then lets have the guts to change it!!

Again, if our traditional holiness standards are TRUTH, then TRUTH will stand the scrutiny. Truth will stand on its own. To re-affirm TRUTH is not rebellious, it is healthy.

In the post to which I respond I am asked a few questions. Let me try and answer them in a concise manner.
1) The question is asked... "Why would God require some things of you, and not of me?" Let me ask, why was Timothy required to be circumcised and Cornelius wasn't?
I believe God requires certain things of different believers in an effort to purify them and remove certain "idols" in their life. I believe he also will require certain things from different people in an effort to reach the lost. I think the intent of your question was to in reference to a set "holiness standard" that encompassed all believers. Is it wrong for a woman to wear a pair of pants as she rides a snowmobile 60 miles across the tundra to go to church? Some would say that if a holy woman of God wears pants she is wrong... really?! Please show me the scriptures that would say the woman in my example is wrong before God and going to hell because of it. I believe she is modest, sensible, and trying to get to the house of God for worship.

2) The question was asked, "Incidentally, is there any scripture supporting that what God requires of you is different than what God requires of me?"
Yes. The Timothy circumcision example being one of them. Now look at Rom. 14:14. If you believe something is unclean, then the Bible says to you it is unclean... and read that whole chapter, and it says that for me, it is fine. (verse 20 is powerful).

3) You ask what some of the "idols" of today are? I would say one is the love of food. We have many, many people... including pastors/preachers that are drastically overweight. I mean XXXtremely. Doesn't the scriptures say that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost? Doesn't the Bible teach against obesity??
A second one is Hollywood entertainment. I am afraid we watch far to many movies/DVD's/Shows that cross over God's line of holiness. I am not saying, it is all wrong... but I am saying that too many of us preachers and saints alike, cross this line on a regular basis. Especially the generation under 40.
A possible third is money/possessions. Costly attire, costly vehicles, costly houses, etc.

Now, I read this and realize I didn't mean to get as detailed as I did. But I am frustrated. Yes, I admit it.
Lord, lead us to the cross. Remind us of what all this is about. How many people walk past our churches and never, ever come in? Are we so caught up trying to substantiate traditions and personal convictions that we have forgotten why we have the light?

Please God, lead us to the truly old paths..... please.
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  #437  
Old 05-04-2008, 04:03 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldpaths View Post
In the context of gifts of the Spirit, of which 1 Cor 12 shows that administrations are gifts, the following is an example of a singular "He" ruling:

Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

God bless.
So, in every church there is only a single person who "gives?" And only one person who "shows mercy?"

Instead of searching for proof texts that only seem to substantiate something you've already said, why not look to the Word of God with a fresh set of eyes and discover its truth for yourself?
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  #438  
Old 05-04-2008, 09:37 PM
theoldpaths theoldpaths is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
So, in every church there is only a single person who "gives?" And only one person who "shows mercy?"

Instead of searching for proof texts that only seem to substantiate something you've already said, why not look to the Word of God with a fresh set of eyes and discover its truth for yourself?
Gifts of the Spirit are for the body of Christ; are there many pastors in the body of Christ? Yes. Therefore, are there many rulers? Yes.
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Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls...
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  #439  
Old 05-05-2008, 11:29 AM
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GraceAmazing GraceAmazing is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

QUOTE:

Good stuff. For the record, I have no problem with pastoral authority in a church. My father has been a pastor for most of my life. He has done a fine job.

Where my concern lies is with reaching the lost. I truly feel that we are not living the example of Paul that you mentioned, and referred to scriptures that more or less say, "I become all things to all men". I loved your comment "
One could take the above and say that if anything could offend anyone and could possibly keep them from receiving an invitation to come and hear truth and getting saved, it should be avoided."

Wow! Think about that for a moment. We are talking about designing our churches to reflect the minimal amount of barriers for someone to come and be saved. Your post is suggesting that we avoid things that could offend someone from not hearing the truth.

Now the barriers:
1) You bring up hair in I Cor. 11. The principle throughout that scripture is referring to authority and submission before God. We have taken one word, "shorn" and used it to teach that a women's hair can never be cut. That to be long is to be uncut. We disregard other scriptures that specifically refer to shorn as being short, even Acts 18:18 where Paul's head was shorn because he had a vow before God. If God wanted it to be uncut, why didn't he just have Paul use the Greek word for uncut? For me, I have a problem with our classic intepretation.... I am sure we are creating a barrier that stops visitors from even considering coming to our church. IF someone wants to hold this as a personal conviction, well that is their choice... but please don't extend that to the congregation and put a stumbling block before the lost. I see a sinner lady with long hair, and I know it is long... even if it is cut. I notice the long hair, and my first thought is she is a woman. To ask ladies to have uncut hair is a major challenge to most newly converted saints.... and to sinners who are aware of this! My wife wasn't raised in Pentecost, is extremely intelligent, well educated, and saved. Now I am to ask her to abide by a teaching that can't be supported in scripture?

2) No beards on men! Ok, the 70's are over with. Why do we still need to try and hold this as a holiness standard? Why are books written in an effort to try and support the "no beard" standard? We want separation of the sexes and doesn't a man wearing a beard certainly have immediate distinction from a woman! I doubt the "no beard" standard stops many people from visiting a church, but why have it in place if it isn't scriptural?

3) Holiness tends to get thought of as a dress and acceptable look on a woman. We have accomplished "Separation". So as a man, how does my dress separate me from the world? The majority of our pentecostal men look no different from their conservative counterparts. We need to teach holiness as a lifestyle that is pleasing to God. We need a healthy fear of our actions before a holy God. We need to continually demonstrate a LOVE of GOD and PEOPLE. When was the last time I visited the sick, the widows.. or feed the hungry... or supported the orphans? Is this not holiness... loving like Jesus did?

Yes, I agree with the poster... if leadership mandates a requirement then it is bound in heaven for that church. If leadership looses something, then it is loosed in heaven. "All authority" was given....

So to everyone reading this. To pastors who might read this. Please consider that what we hold as traditions and call "old paths" and "landmarks" may just simply be a conservative choice done in the 1940's to align with the last few decades of culture. Don't twist the scriptures and attempt to force them to support your personal conviction! Ask yourself, why do you really call this a conviction? Will it help or hinder people getting saved? I'm looking for the real old paths, the ones the apostles and disciples trod... and if a mistake has been made, then lets have the guts to change it!!

Again, if our traditional holiness standards are TRUTH, then TRUTH will stand the scrutiny. Truth will stand on its own. To re-affirm TRUTH is not rebellious, it is healthy.

In the post to which I respond I am asked a few questions. Let me try and answer them in a concise manner.
1) The question is asked... "Why would God require some things of you, and not of me?" Let me ask, why was Timothy required to be circumcised and Cornelius wasn't?
I believe God requires certain things of different believers in an effort to purify them and remove certain "idols" in their life. I believe he also will require certain things from different people in an effort to reach the lost. I think the intent of your question was to in reference to a set "holiness standard" that encompassed all believers. Is it wrong for a woman to wear a pair of pants as she rides a snowmobile 60 miles across the tundra to go to church? Some would say that if a holy woman of God wears pants she is wrong... really?! Please show me the scriptures that would say the woman in my example is wrong before God and going to hell because of it. I believe she is modest, sensible, and trying to get to the house of God for worship.

2) The question was asked, "Incidentally, is there any scripture supporting that what God requires of you is different than what God requires of me?"
Yes. The Timothy circumcision example being one of them. Now look at Rom. 14:14. If you believe something is unclean, then the Bible says to you it is unclean... and read that whole chapter, and it says that for me, it is fine. (verse 20 is powerful).

3) You ask what some of the "idols" of today are? I would say one is the love of food. We have many, many people... including pastors/preachers that are drastically overweight. I mean XXXtremely. Doesn't the scriptures say that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost? Doesn't the Bible teach against obesity??
A second one is Hollywood entertainment. I am afraid we watch far to many movies/DVD's/Shows that cross over God's line of holiness. I am not saying, it is all wrong... but I am saying that too many of us preachers and saints alike, cross this line on a regular basis. Especially the generation under 40.
A possible third is money/possessions. Costly attire, costly vehicles, costly houses, etc.

Now, I read this and realize I didn't mean to get as detailed as I did. But I am frustrated. Yes, I admit it.
Lord, lead us to the cross. Remind us of what all this is about. How many people walk past our churches and never, ever come in? Are we so caught up trying to substantiate traditions and personal convictions that we have forgotten why we have the light?

Please God, lead us to the truly old paths..... please.

Remarkable post! I appreciate your honesty and I agree, I'm somewhat frustrated myself. I'm tired of hearing about how I'm losing my "holiness" just because I see things a little different. I haven't lost anything, of course, I haven't even changed anything! I'm tired of hearing how our generation doesn't love God and we're in the last days because look at this younger generation, they're so far from God. Somewhere something has to give. I'm just not sure what that thing will be...and when that will be...or where...
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  #440  
Old 05-05-2008, 09:33 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Re: Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to kee

It's better to use the quote box at the bottom right corner of the post you want to quote.
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